Lately stuck on WW2 history.

[Deesse23]

I doubt the correct reporting and evaluation of the radar contact at Pearl would have made any significant difference, even if we assume the US could have launched a number of aircraft before the japanese attack commenced.

#1 Attacking planes were escorted by Zero fighters, a lot of Zero fighters
#2 The Zero was at that time better than any US fighter
#3 Japanese pilots had a significant experience advantage over US pilots. We know from the EU   theatore as well as the later pacific theatre how important pilot experience was
#4 1hr or so of early warning still would have left the US BBs sitting ducks in a row. It takes much longer than that to get pressure on the boilers and turbines. Even if they would have managed to move (like Nevada did) they would have been hit, just like Nevada was, there wasnt much room to maneuver.

Overall i´d expect the result not to be any fundamentally different.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I doubt the correct reporting and evaluation of the radar contact at Pearl would have made any significant difference, even if we assume the US could have launched a number of aircraft before the japanese attack commenced.

#1 Attacking planes were escorted by Zero fighters, a lot of Zero fighters
#2 The Zero was at that time better than any US fighter
#3 Japanese pilots had a significant experience advantage over US pilots. We know from the EU   theatore as well as the later pacific theatre how important pilot experience was
#4 1hr or so of early warning still would have left the US BBs sitting ducks in a row. It takes much longer than that to get pressure on the boilers and turbines. Even if they would have managed to move (like Nevada did) they would have been hit, just like Nevada was, there wasnt much room to maneuver.

Overall i´d expect the result not to be any fundamentally different.

The Fleet had several hundred guns that could have been manned a ready if we knew of the attack before hand. The Army didn't have ammunition available for the AAA that was in place. The ships were not "buttoned up", some of them had covers removed from voids, making it easier to sink them. The BBs were supplying their own power, one boiler running to provide "hotel services", like electricity.

I've often posited that a line of destroyers anchored east of Battleship Row would have made torpedo attack almost impossible. However, given that the Americans didn't think torpedoes could be used in the shallow waters of Pearl, the idea of such a deployment was unlikely to occur to them even if they knew the IJN was coming.

And the Zero wasn't better than the Tomahawk, just more famous.

[The Grand Nudger]

More famous than a P40?...heresy! 

[Deesse23]

And the Zero wasn't better than the Tomahawk, just more famous.

The A6M climbed better and had a better sustained turn rate at any given speed than the P40B
The P40B was slightly faster.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And the Zero wasn't better than the Tomahawk, just more famous.

The A6M climbed better and had a better sustained turn rate at any given speed than the P40B
The P40B was slightly faster.

The Zeke didn't have self-sealing fuel tanks or any appreciable armor.

BUT: During the Korean War the US offered a bounty for the MiG-15. One pilot got rich and a free ticket to the US. Then they gave the plane to the test people. Chuck Yeager took an F-86 against the MiG and won. Then the pilots swapped planes. Yeager won again. Pilot matters more than machine.

[The Grand Nudger]

The p40 had four -very- clear advantages over the a6m. Zero pilots respected them immensely.

It was better in a diving attack (or escape).

It was flatly superior at speeds above 250 MPH.

It was -always- faster.

It was heavily armored.

The aircraft were night and day.  The p40 was the superior energy fighter, the a6m a turn and burner.  By refusing to give the enemy a low speed death spiral, a p40 could completely dictate the engagement. At high altitude, the p40 was it's equal in the tnb rgardless of speed. Once we'd trained our pilots to the appropriate doctrine..that's exactly what they did. P40's were wrecking japanese aircraft all over the world..from the start of the war till the end. Most famously, I suppose.... in china. To goive an idea of the disparity...level and cruising a p40 was about 30mph faster than a zero. If the engagement included diving....the p40 was much...much faster, capable of engaging in high g turns and even of surviving mid air collisions...while the zero....sluggish over 250, went dead stick at 350....and couldn;t take a hit for shit.

Speed kills, especially when you can make a mistake and take one on the chin...without turning into a ball of fire.


nomnomnomnom

[Anomalocaris]

The A6M climbed better and had a better sustained turn rate at any given speed than the P40B
The P40B was slightly faster.

The Zeke didn't have self-sealing fuel tanks or any appreciable armor.

BUT: During the Korean War the US offered a bounty for the MiG-15. One pilot got rich and a free ticket to the US. Then they gave the plane to the test people. Chuck Yeager took an F-86 against the MiG and won. Then the pilots swapped planes. Yeager won again. Pilot matters more than machine.

The zero was highly optimized for twisting, turning type of dog fight. It was supremely maneuverable at low to medium speed and low to medium altitude.   It was also wonderfully acrobatic in these regimes, with marvelous control characteristics.  The Japanese naval pilots were highly trained for this type of air combat, and the zero was superbly designed to make the most of Japanese pilot skill in this type of battle.  When fighting in this regime, the zero was unbeatable by other modern fighters of the era.

P-40 could dive faster, and was faster at higher altitude. If it refuses to twist and turn with the zero and this allow its speed to bleed away, then it hold its own against the zero by using speed, climb and dive to making it difficult for the zero to draw a bead on it with ordinary maneuvering.

Overall the zero was absolutely the better air combat fighter,  that doesn’t mean it can crush the P-40 in every encounter scenario.   It can crash the P-40 in most scenarios, and hold its own in the remainder.

If you look purely at low to medium speed, low to medium altitude combat maneuverability, the zero was good, but not without equal.  Many 1930s biplane fighters and a few early light fixed wheel monoplane fighters were just as maneuverable as the zero.  What made zero expectional was it didn’t give up the maneuverability that were normal in an earlier generation of fighters, but which most other modern fighters gave up in favor of heavier firepower, higher performance.   But the zero kept the maneuverability but nonetheless matched most other modern fighters in firepower and performance.

Of course the designers of other modern fighters knew aerodynamics and physics just as well as Mitsubishi.  So the zero could not have achieved this feat without some sacrifices compared to those other fighters.  That sacrifice was in a the form of light, thoroughbred structure that can’t stand up to battle damage.

One other thing often overlooked in assessing the zero’s combat record is the Japanese fighter pilot was trained to fight as an skilled individual pilot, with relatively little emphasis on collaboration within a section much less on squadron level. So some of the combat record has to account for the fact that allied pilots coordinate better than Japanese pilots.

[The Grand Nudger]

Allied pilots in energy fighters working in tandem with strict discipline was basically zero kryptonite. No advantage of the airframe with respect to the other could overcome that.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And then we came up with the Thach Weave.

[The Grand Nudger]

BnZ, Low yo-yo, Thach Weave, equals dead zero.

They got outplayed before they were outmatched, but that followed very shortly after. Had to be disheartening considering their early success. Hell, one of japans most famous aces was shot down by a fuckin two seat bomber. Zero couldn't take that hot ass canopy mg fire. If he'd executed the same attack in a p40, the engine block would have prevented his injuries at the very least.....and it's highly unlikely that it would have done significant damage to the aircraft, either.

Heres something fun he had to say about a wildcat

I had full confidence in my ability to destroy the Grumman and decided to finish off the enemy fighter with only my 7.7 mm machine guns. I turned the 20 mm cannon switch to the 'off' position and closed in. For some strange reason, even after I had poured about five or six hundred rounds of ammunition directly into the Grumman, the airplane did not fall, but kept on flying. I thought this very odd — it had never happened before — and closed the distance between the two airplanes until I could almost reach out and touch the Grumman. To my surprise, the Grumman's rudder and tail were torn to shreds, looking like an old torn piece of rag. With his plane in such condition, no wonder the pilot was unable to continue fighting! A Zero which had taken that many bullets would have been a ball of fire by now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabur%C5%8D_Sakai