How to discuss religion with believers?

[The Grand Nudger]

....lost causes.....

[Drich]

To me it is not impossible, but if all you people keep giving me is banther without one ounce of evidence, it remains a tale. A tale as worthy to be believed as that found in a fantasy book. What puzzles me is that you(in general, not you specifically) claim to have found the truth, or god, or name it however you want but when asked how the process works, it is as vague as synthesized anti-matter.

funny how double sided the word evidence can be. on one hand I can say I witnessed you commit a murder and if one or two other little things don't fall your way this is considered to be enough "evidence" for the state to imprison you for the rest of your life. if the crime is heinous enough, this 'evidence' is enough to see you executed. but on a less formal level, say a one on one level eyewitness testimony doesn't see like it counts for anything. why is that? why can you summarily dismiss what the sate in a similar search for truth holds to a premium??? (Eye witness testimony being one of the hardest forms of evidence to over come)

After all, Not like I ask you for money, not like I said "embrace God" or trust in christ or open yourself to him or anything else. I said simple seek the truth and allow it no matter where it leads. again I am advocating objectivity and a logical approach, as what was done for me is indeed offered to everyone.

"Embrace god", "trust in Christ", "open yourself to him", "accept all the shit you are thrown at", etc. None of these can be reproducibly or reliably recognized or detected at all. You can convince yourself it is because of this, but that's just gut feeling. But stating with certainty that you found it and it is as it is, it's rather bold.

and here we go. objectivity out the window and I am classified sa just another religious nut bag for whom you pull a stock response out for. What happened to you objectivity? why the fast move to classify my word and works as just some other religious testimony hitting all the same bases making all the same points? DId you even read anything I said? or did you just skim over thinking I know where he is going? This quote of your doesn't boade well for you taking the time to read what I have said. Seems to me you disqualified all my objectivity because I did not come to the same conclusion you did when you considered all the things "open yourself to him, trust in christ" that I never once asked you to do. Again I took a completely different approach. but that doesn't seem like anything you want to discuss.

No, people are not necessarily stupid, but they may be lazy or just don't want to know.

I'm looking at how you started this post and can observe the truth about people just not wanting to know can be said no matter what you personally believe about God. again look how quick and lazily you dismissed my efforts without addressing anything I personally said.

My uncle is the most erudite person I know and he's christian, but I can see where he stopped.

so do you assume we all must have stopped where he did to have his same beliefs?

He doesn't question his religion/god anymore.

I can show you a dozen churches where the same is true I can also show you a dozen schools of 'higher learning' where everything is blindly accepted just because it comes down the right pike. I can also point to hundreds of churches where the questions never stop and schools where the same is true.

What I've told you here is I ran out of question came here and to other webs sites looking for ore bible based questions and God has yet to leave me without a bible based answer. Heck we even reconciled the whole of evolution in a 7 day creation, and not one of you in 10 years has been able to a biblical reason nor a scientific one why this would not work...

I asked him why, the reply was "at my age, what's the point of further looking into it? It was the answer I sought and the answer I got.

because for him he found enough truth to sustain what he needs. but again just because your uncle found water at the end of a 10 ft well what in you mind says it will dry up the deeper you go?

You can't really reason it out, at some point you have to make a leap of faith.

The only faith required is that of a mustard seed. Christ Himself says this. if you can muster up the faith that of a mustard seed (one of the smallest tiniest seeds) God will Move mountains of doubt that stand before you. Think doubting thomas. He was not admonished for demanding to put his hands in the wounds of Christ, but rather Christ wounds and all made himself available to him. In short all thomas had to do is seek christ on his terms. (He had to be at a certain place at a given time) All we need do is Ask Seek and knock for the Holy Spirit.

You are too annoying and inquisitive to make that leap, but it won't really matter at the end, you are a good guy". He's old now, life was different at his time, but the main difference between us is that I keep researching and investigating while he stopped at the first assumed truth. It may be the actual truth in the end, but how do you know already at this point in time without further research?

Maybe he stopped looking when he got to put his hands in the wounds of christ, and for him that was enough. God promises to give us the evidence we need to start and maintain a current one on one relationship. If God gave you what you needed to believe without doubt at 10 and maintained you with all the contact and reassurance you need now would you still doubt? by definition no. What makes you think You uncle did not find the very God who alludes you? why can't you uncle be in a more eternally fortunate place than you? why doesn't he deserve God favor over you? Seriously? do smart people somehow have a lock on what is and is not eternal? is it not possible your lowly simply uncle be right and you be wrong? why is his contentment so offensive?

Also, you talk about direct contact with God. Perhaps it would be useful for you to read my answers to Godscreated, as they cover this. I'll copypaste some line to save you time:

How do you come to Christ and ask him? Like, do you go to a church and start asking the crucified statue of Christ to show up?

I went a different route. I hated God. I grew up bad and wanted to beat the shite out of christians and further more wanted to spit in his eye..
I demanded an audience and wanted to know the truth and demands he answer for me lot in life. I was to judge him! So he gave me the shot. I went to sleep and 'woke up' at my judgement. me and a few others shoulder to shoulder, once i figured who this guy was I hit the ground face first. He got to the guy next to me and heard him say well done my good and faithful servant you may enter my father rest.. Then me I was stood up and looked into his eye for but a moment and felt love beyond description I felt complete and understood everything for a moment then was ripped out of that when he looked at me he said away from me i never knew you, then was cast i the void... I learn what hell fire was (it's not fire it is the eotioal response of a being being consumed by the eptiness of creation it is like black tar/being disolved slowly and the panic and primal fear of being consumed.. I found out what gnashing of teeth was and why it is such a miserable thing, I also fond out the devil and his angels do not run hell, they like us are being punished. all of this before I had any clue as to what the bible actually said. I always though hell was lke the dante's inferno had described...

After a few moments the real panic or reality of eternity began to snk in and me trying to contemplate what an eternity of this level 11 out of 10 madness would be like, and what's worse the truth was now know to me, and how much more sad my situation now that I knew the truth, and the wonder only if I knew it with time left on my clock would I be any different.. that was all too much and I felt my self being consumed.. IE what made me me my sanity was leaving me and what was going to be left was this animalistic husk who I thought would also be devoured by the hell fire given enough time.. just as the last light of creation was gone I felt like I was being pulled out of hell. Then was told I but visited the gates and not to waist this chance I was given.

Before I knew anything of God I knew of a moment of his love that will make me yearn to return to it for as along as I live, and I know Hell Not as something to fear or push people away from as hell for some is better than service in heaven. So I am not here to save anyone from hell but to offer the truth of it and God as He gives me utterance.

Then later as I was growing in the Spirit a "messenger" was sent to me. He basically laid out my whole future. then hundreds if not thousands of little nudges and directions.. a few visions of both spiritual and non spiritual happenings (one instance lead to two patents and a buy out from a major company) and spiritual guidance that has help me and many many other people.

I've already tried that and nothing happened.

Again the parable of the wise and foolish builders. The first 1/2 of my life I sought my God my way, and as a result my idea of God never came to save me because my idea of god was not real. Real God demands you meet him on His terms. If you can do this he will move heaven and earth for you.

Also tried with my granma's rosary and nothing happened either.

God and religion have nothing to do with one or another. All religions are double edged swords they help one to the core materials needed but also cut a path to have one first serve the religion then God. When in fact we do not need 'religion.' EI beads creeds bear, oh my!

Then I tried reading a verse of the bible and ask midway to showup and nothing happened. I tried reciting a request in my mind, thinking that maybe he'd choose another communication channel, and didn't hear any whisper either. Also tried the opposite, as trying to provoke him, or invoke satan, even decided to join some "spiritual group" that claimed to be able to come in contact with superior being through spiritic sessions and nothing ever happened there either. 

Now let pretend that god after doing things your way did show up... Now who in your mind would you be serving? the God of the bible or would you rather be the master of a genie and a magic lamp? If you can command God to show up by rubbing a lamp or shouting a verse or encantation then who is the servant and who is the master?

Now what if, just play along what if God demanded to be the master and you a servant? would he then reward his servant when ever the servant demanded the master show up?

Let's say you worked for the queen or trump or obama or whatever world leader tickles you fancy, and you demand that wrld leader show up friday nigh so he can watch you kids while you go out... Would obama show up? would the queen show up? would anyoe show up? why?

Then why in the Hell would you expact the master and commander of the universe to show up and do tricks for you?

Can you see how that verion of God is your specific god and when you tested him he did not show up because he was not real. And the real God has no obligation to show up because he is way way to good for your BS (or whatever the reason obama will not get his ass over to your house everytime you text...) But again what if you served the obama white house and you where doing the job he has placed you in.. could you then expect to interact and even be awarded by him?

God is the God of the OT. God is the God of power God is not a circus clown who will do trick when summoned. God doesnot trade good deeds for granted wishes. These are examples of building your house on sand and when tested the house will fall. your god was tested and because it was not based in truth your god when tested failed.

If the bible is an instruction book, then it's badly written. Everything can be interpreted in many ways, it's more like a puzzle with no solution (or many solutions).

There are two rules and one direct command for us. God has hidden these in plain site for all who will simply ask, seek and knock.

3) because you foolish assume fulfillment comes at the end of emotional stimulation. strip away emotion, take the promises in the bible and follow the prescribed path and honestly wait and see what happens. Or are you saying there can be no objectivity in openly and honestly identifying a set of parameters and following said instructions when it comes to vetting a deity?

As above.

In turn, as above.

4) Again, you claim to be looking for objectivity but at the same time dismiss it because the net result is not what you are looking for.  Which would make you guilty of seeking a confirmation bias. You are not looking for an objective discussion you are looking for someone who agrees with you and will help you fortify your position.
Just because I did not come to the same conclusions you did does not mean I did not objective walk through my religious experience.
rosery beads=/= objective religious experience. I'm sorry but that is not even a biblical thing... yet you demand full access to the God of the bible?!?!

Come on seriously?!?

When ever does a half measure yield a full finite result?

Don't put words in my mouth. I am asking you of the reasons(evidence) that make you so certain and confident that what's written in this book is the truth, and you fail to deliver this reason/evidence.

Actually I did not I gave you full eyewitness testimony, and what's yet promised you'd be eligible for the same type of treatment if you would just honest pursue where ever God leads. This would be no different than me telling as a stranger on the street there is a guy one block over wearing a batman outfit giving out 100$ bills if you provide him with two different color joker playing cards. Now I can show you the money he gave me or I can till you what I spent it on, but the actual proof is in you providing what was required and receiving your own money... I can't give you the 100$ bill I was given as this in of itself is not proof. "science" is the wrong tool for evendairy exploration. Where the truth can be determined is in someone going up to bat man and following his instructions. if you get you 100$ bill then you know it is true. Looking for scientific data where none can be gather is not smart it is a fools errand. why seek to follow a procedure not intended for this type of discernment? you are forcing a round peg into a square hole and proclaiming there is no evidence, when there is, just not what you demand. This is what I mean by following the evidence no matter where it goes. Stop demanding God meet you on your term stop trying to put god in the little box of science. If god could be encapsulated in the little box of science God would not be infinite/god. Science would then be God. which is why 'you types' hide behind science as you or one of you knows God will never be found there serving you.

If you asked me "what makes you so confident that the gravitational constant is 9.81 m/s2?" then I would tell you that I made an experiment throwing an object and its motion behaved according to that number.

but you are not asking for a constant. you are asking for an infinite unknowable lest you follow a specific given formula, but refuse to follow said formula. You demand God make himself constant so you wrap your little head around him/science can understand and or manipulate him. Again why would the master ever serve? Why would the infinite be finite on your terms?

The reason we hide from God in science is because if science ever discovers God we then become the master and do not have to serve. So then why would God seek this group of people out and go above and beyond for them?

No, of course I wouldn't have if I were blind. But then it wouldn't be me. What switch are you talking about? What you are saying sounds like "if you believe in god, then you'll manage to surpass your limits". Are you saying that embracing god is enough to trigger some "miracle" in life? That perhaps someone without legs will be able to levitate if he believes in god? 

sure why not? I can levitate a person with a series of magnates, if magnates are within my grasp then why would you assume they would be off limits for the God who created them? wow what limited thinking you have. why in you world would God be excluded from using anything man knows or understand by science? Think about it if you were to create... everything would you create it in such a way that you must move through your creation supernaturally? or would you create creation in such a way as to naturally comply with your ability? meaning why in your world would God be excluded from using the things you can use? why can't god use technology? why can't god be a being who uses medicine what primitive 'forward thinker' says God must magic everything away??!

And yes I am working on a level way far and above my abilities. (and apparently yours when it comes to a fundamental understanding of God)
God: what's a Mag-nate? is that how you say it Mag-net you say and you can foat things with it like trains and make electricity?!?! wuuut... Man sounds easier than magicing thunder bolts, I usally have to have at least 6 tacos per bolt... now I gotta get me some mag-nates..

You know, my cousin converted to christianity because of an episode of his life. He was a lawyer, rich, successful, never believed in anything despite his family being heavily christian and always overindulged himself with food and was huge. Then he had a stroke and his heart almost stopped. The doctors operated him  and he recovered. Since that episode he converted to christianity, saying how he felt this was a 2nd chance from above to stop being a pig and how he'd devote himself to god from that day on. The actual fact however, is that his condition wasn't as bad as he thought and the doctors simply performed a normal operation with a great chance of success. Would you define this as a miracle? I would define this as "statistics".

So God... The master and creator of everything is barred from the OR?
What do men of 'science' use to keep God from the operating room? PKE meter and proton packs? seriously what in your little mind/science or in the bible says God is limited to magic? Then what 'doctrine' says is it ok for only 'science' to live in the hands and workmanship of man? I just gave you an example of God using my hands to create two patentable items, He used my fingers to type out a resolution between creation and evolution.. why can't he also in turn use a surgical knife?

Then you have my auntie, a heavy smoker who was super christian since forever. Very kind and nice with everyone, a golden person who loved life, very generous. Someone who went through divorce because she donated all her savings to help the poor (in disagreement with my uncle). Guess what happened? Her lungs just stopped working. 

Oh, my glob.. what make death a punishment in you opinion? why is death not also seen to be a reward? In truth our death is is our rebirth into eternity. If we die we go home if we live we have more work here to do. Long life is not the reward people make it out to be. maybe after giving that money away she got to simply go home to a loving God and people who she longed to be with again.

And then there is you and I personally don't see how what's special with your tale exactly. Yours just looks like a... life. Harder than some, better than some other (from my pov as a "happiness economist"). One of the many possible combinations. Just like my cousin's, just like my auntie's, just like mine. 

stood before God in judgement, given a second chance, met with spoke to and had an angel detail out my past present and future, graduated with a elementary reading level, found God, he gave me access to his wisdom and understanding, follow the path I was put on went from mopping up floors in a tire store to success I would never have even thought to wish for upon myself. to even greater spiritual accomplishments that seriously make me blush thinking about them, and not only all of that. I stand here before you offering the very same type of treatment for you as I have been given.. I'm not asking you for anything in return, not asking for money you go to this church or that or to give up you pot pizza and porn.. Just honestly and objective follow God where He leads. the rest will work it's way out

But again, those are irrelevant details to me. What puzzles me is how you are so confident and certain that the god described in that book is the truth?.

Like i told you i the very beginning. answered promises. God promised to 'show up' if you ask, Seek and knock and I did and he showed up. in the way of my judgement, in the way of my messenger in the way of business career without the benefit of any rhyme or logical reason to be successful in a career I was not trained for.

Are you sure your life evolved like it did because of God?

When you stand before Christ in judgement, and a messengerof God tells you of your past present and future when you live those things out and at the same time reminded daily (by your peers on this web site) That I can't spell or have terrible grammar/I a moron I have to source the truth from somewhere. if not from me, then from God. Because in 1000% honesty everything I said to you I have lived through I have shared these thing from my very first posts here, and they all ring true.

Or did it evolve like that because of your "convinction" of god's existence?

Sorry no. I did not start life out like your uncle. I started out hating God.

A sort of placebo effect? Or autosuggestion? There are psychology therapies where they make you repeat phrases such as "I am a talented person", "I am not worse than others", "I am not stupid" to build up confidence. How are you certain that you achieved what you did because of god and not because of autosuggestion or one of those confidence build-up techniques?

yeah how many retards hold and sold patents for high six figures? how many retards sold (alot for alot more) a pop last year using one little web site and a car trader type of ad? how much placebo does it take for people and deals to be just dropped in my lap over and over for almost 20+ years does it take to allow me to spend 40 to 60 % of my day here or in research for people like you?

Why do I say retard because it was the technical term "Retarded." they pinned on our shirts while in grade school to keep "us" separated from the normal kids. thankfully after middle school they stopped doing this.. However people knew if you spent more than 1/2 tou classes in the back portables that you were still retarded.

Again you are successful because you where trained to be. It was given to me despite my natural abilities. Again without your pedigree do you think you could have anything you do now? now take away reading and writing and ask yourself honestly where would you be.. yeah?!?! well me too. Cleaning shops after real mechanics and digging holes. if not a thief and stoner.

one two instance yes coincidence is a possible explanation. marginal success? possible placebo.. two patents, sold them doubled down split my business into a factory that makes speciality trucks (again from my own design) and a commercial car lot that sells them internationally, all from money from some one I did not know?!?! then have it all work out for almost 20 years.. seriously I am an MF-ing suvaunt and truly way way smarter than anyone here... Or again as so many of you point out I'm an idiot who's God is propping up with hords of angels working over time keeping busy with stuff God can use me to do.
And after asking my wife this (where she thinks I'm a suvaunt or a pitiful fool God is dragging around and unduly blessing.. )
She:" have you heard the term "idiot savant"
me: yes..
she: 1/2 that term applies.
Me:
Me: S-u-v...
She: I-d-i...
So there's that.

The only limits of man are the ones that man places upon himself.

that's stupid. what constrains a man are his constraints. His limitations. We are all limited, some far more than others. Especially in society. As society is what decides how to measure a man.

A man who does not know his station in life rather a man who is not bound by his limitations are quickly knocked down. just look how Christians are generally treated here in a place who prize non christian thought over what is deem 'rational thought.' You can not tell me my constrains are my own when it is you and you peers who determine my place and position based on what I believe?

After what sounds like an unfortunate tale (according to my view of un/fortunate), you stated that line in red. I want to confirm a few things about that particular sentence, as the practical details elude me:

1) Who was that someone that god supposedly sent you? Was it the guy who loaned you the 25k$?

https://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
This is what I wrote my first year here about that.

2) Why are you so sure it was god (or his messenger/angel)? Why couldn't it have been a random guy? With all the weird shit that happens in life and all the "unusual" people that surround us, why is that particular man so much more special and worth to be assumed to be a godsent? Why couldn't it have been a person like my auntie? Because I asked/determined while he was speaking this guy must be my gaurdian angel. he stopped mid sentence smiled at me and said "something like that."

3) What plan did you follow? Was it a plan you devised and improvised on your own after receiving the money, or was something that the "someone" suggested to you?

Ask/Seek/Knock still do today.

4) What were you promised? How did these promises come to being? Are you sure they became reality because of god and not just because of you?

To have wisdom that exceeds solomons and Wealth to also exceeds his.. Which by OT standards no man wisdom or wealth should ever exceed his.. This bother me for a long time seeing how it was a possible contradiction till I asked God and he said your wisdom is not of man (your a retard solomon was not) your wisdom is that of the Holy Spirit. meaning I have access to God's wisdom which indeed exceeds the wisdom of solomon.. and as far as wealth goes I think basic air conditioning and a 1967 mustang beats and slave girl with a big feather fan or chariot he had so...

Breaking the whole evolution and assimilating it into a 7 day creation.. not to brag but that was definitely me getting to use the old God library card as it came in a 10 or 15 min vision movie I had to put in order...

That is correct. I can't imagine a life with such heavy impairments. I can already barely find a reason to live but my survival instinct keeps me from killing myself; so while I'm alive I just maximize all the activities that bring me excitement, satisfaction, peace of mind or pleasure, while minimizing painful, annoying or boring circumstances. Luckily I am in such condition where I can easily achieve and maintain the current status and so I keep on living. 

while people with paralisis do not have the same struggle to want to live as you do. what if you could find true happiness but had to give up your arms and legs or live miserable with full autonomy? Honestly what does it matter what life looks like if you are truly happy and want for nothing? verse what is life like to want for nothing not even having a desire to live?

Misery is not doing without, it is not living with what you have been given. I have found in poorness in wealth in good health and bad it is possible to be in a living hell or in heaven despite the specifics of your circumstances. In some of my worst times I found my self looking back at how much I learned to love. that how in those times I forged a life I would not give up for anything. while for instance these past few years have been so good I almost remember nothing of them. As Contentment and happiness is not about your situation but how you learn to live despite what is happening to you.

But if something very nasty happened to me such as being cut in half or becoming blind (which would make 80% of my activities impossible), then I would most likely find a way out of this misery through suicide. Why should I suffer pointlessly in that case? Just out of the "hope" that there will be a nice afterlife for me? Who gives me this certainty? What if I just end up prolonging that misery for nothing?

religious nonsense. nothing in the bible says you can not kill yourself.. I wouldn't as despite what I like to do in service to God, if I can do anything I would then be obligated to do what I can. As life is not about me but those in it I try and serve for Him.

I will give you my answer to your question, as I've already asked and pondered this myself many many times: I'd rather live nicely for 50-60 years the present life I know and I'm somewhat sure of (as I wasn't given anything else upon which to base my ideas) rather than suffer 100 years in the hope that some mystical being will grant me a nice afterlife. This is my answer until further evidence shows up. 

your answer is a strawman.
As I asked would you live a shorter life and go to heaven than live a long life being miserable and not know? you answered it backwards.

At this point you may have picked up on the fact that I don't really care about life and that I'm quite positive that nothing really matters in life, so in turn you could ask me "Why are you so confident and positive that nothing matters and that there is nothing afterwards?"

Now, what do you suppose happens when we die and our brain is dispersed in the environment as atoms and molecules? All the neural contacts and links that allowed us to think, reason, remember and "feel feelings", are interrupted and separated. What previously were our brain particles get transformed and recombined into something else. Perhaps they will form a plant, perhaps they will form the shell of a crustacean, maybe they will be swept even further in space, or maybe they'll re-enter another human body. And this cycle will repeat itself with no real goal. It just happens. From these observations, I am somewhat inclined to think that after death there is nothing. This is my theory about life.

But well, I don't have further evidence, so it will remain just my own speculation. Until further evidence shows up (as I highlighted in my previous answer), I will stick to this speculation that to me sounds the most likely and reasonable. 

As you can see, I have no issue in admitting that I don't possess all evidence yet. I don't see anything wrong in admitting that we don't know yet. But if you come on strong and confident that you have found the truth, of course I'll ask you for some kind of evidence. The same evidence I expect out of myself. No less no more. 

again from the god library.. Our brains are not central processors or independant units. meaning our brains are not the self contain computers we have been taught them to be. our brains are transmitter/receivers. the signals we can monitor are sent and receive from the "cloud" for the lack of a better term.. Maybe matrix would be a better term. In that we are a consciousness that resides in a different dimension that what we see live and experience day to day, we inhabit these bodies as avitar/they are our host. The body consists of a spirit and strength stength being a physical form, and spirit being basic cognitive and primal reactions. our soul is what makes us, us it is our higher reasoning and our consciousness at large this is what resides in the 'cloud' or heavenly dimension. so when we die. our link to the cloud in constantly being updated till we die or till this host body dies, and we wake up from the matrix, and ushered into judgement. As we are "absent from the body and present with the Lord."
[quote]
If at the end of the day it turns out you were right, then I will accept my fate. I have no regrets. Taking into account what I was given, I don't consider myself in the "wrong" for not believing. I lived life according to my convinctions and philosophy, I made friends and people like me, so if I won't be able to uncover the truth in time, I'll happily depart with my current ideas. It's fine by me.

Following up on the next points, you can anticipate what the answers will be:
[quote] that is all I am here for.. to make sure people are ok with what they believe. Nothing worse than eccoing eternity with "what if" or if I'd only known...

[Drich]

You state it all of this as if it was unquestionable truth. They are assumptions not backed up by any evidence (please provide it if you possess it). What do you know about god's concern?

more or less asked and answered. Evidence comes in the way of eye witness testimony. Scientific evidence does not apply as science is not opposed to God but the method in which God naturally operates. The idea that science and God are opposed to each other and scientific evidence excludes God is at best medieval thinking. Tht said I know of God what he has shared with us all through scripture.

How are you so sure that Christ was his son and not a random dude?

Me personally? stood before Him and was judged and sent to hell. Then after my visit obtained a measure of the holy Spirit who empowered Christ Himself while he was on the earth.

And moving on to more common and banal questions: why should god make all this process so tedious and vague and difficult?

God literally has two rules to the whole of Christianity. the rest is man made religion. God did not hide himself we have burried God behind our need to be right and our personal pride.

What's the point?

to function for which the purpose of your creation. To serve and find or be given true contentment and full happiness. To be loved and to love God.

What is he trying to achieve with this?

to fill eternity future with being who were not created to be there but to fill eternity future with beings who elected to be there.

He created humans, but they didn't function as he expected and so he threw them out and made up some confused instructables about how to make them "fix" themselves up and go back to his place. Why all of this?

they function exactly as expected. otherwise why else make the Garden so small and the rest of the world so big? why create Adam on day 4 and the rest of man who evolved outside the garden on day 6? So when the fall happened 6000 years ago there was a genetically compatible breeding stock for Adam's children to pass their souls onto. Christ dying on the cross simply draws a line for God in the sand. it eliminates the law in so far as to make eveyone equal for a moment in time on this one issue: will you respect God enough to honor what Christ did to atone for all sin. if yes then no matter your sin your past or your culture you can enter eternity with God. if no then you are separated from those who do honor God. What better way to test those who would other wise be swayed by the trappings of the "THINGS" God would offer.. Place us in a matrix or sorts with no intrinsic knowledge of God, Heaven Hell eternity reward or punishment and then be made to simply choose based on your hearts own desire to know or worship God.. The wheat and weeds get separated easily when they do it themselves.

And now I'll ask you: "what fool would invest in an eternety that is not guaranteed?".

again the only faith needed Jesus estimates is as small as a mustard seed meaning all you need is the smallest amount to honestly seek out the truth and follow God where he leads. if you can do this one thing He/God promises to literally move mountains of doubt out of your way. This Christ promises to all of us not just me. What other guarantee do you need? what about the guarantee of mini ice age of the 70s and 80s? or in the late 90's global warming or now global climate change, or the guarantee of a hole in the ozone that has been sealed up before our bans on cfc was in full effect? or what about the guarantee of the 1980 that if you ate from the nutritional pyramid you'd live a long and healthy life? (Now the pyramid is the exact opposite) To believe in any of this takes a measure of faith. why because there in lies an unknown or at the very least a unaccountable variable that can indeed falsify every single claim. So then if all things being equal what more faith is required to earnestly seek out the truth in God verse the truth in say the mini ice age? or a hole in the ozone or whatever new the sky is falling 'science' that a tax or a change in product consumption will save is all?

If there was evidence that an afterlife exists, then I would change my mind. But to the best of my knowledge, there isn't and so far none of you has shown it.

I am not God. I did not promise you anything. I am simply one who has follow the directions of the bible and received what has been promised me.

Ok, you don't see it as a reward in this physical life but more as a condition for later on. But how do you know that you are serving this god?

because I am doing what was asked/tasked in the bible and what I was told to do by the messenger God sent.

Again (in practice), did he show up again in some form and told you that you are doing a good job?

the "good job" comes in the way the parable of the talents outlines.. in that your "talents" you responsibilities double You are given more talents. The things you see as reward and the thing I see as more work are the same. It is also very apparent when I am walking the path I also know I can literally petition God for anything and get it. however as I get older I also understand the cost. that nothing happens in a vacuum. If I pray for more more money then it comes in the way of bigger deals tighter deadlines pushing the equipment pushing employees fraid nerves and on down the line the dominoes fall, till we need to expand, which means even more money and more everything else. So I ask for what we need to be where he wants us to be and not exceed the pace we need to be at. I seek now what God wants for me because I know in the end it will always work out better for me than if I were to choose my own path.

How do you know what he sees fit?

because whether you like it or not it is your lot in life.

Does he send you monthly assignments that you carry out?

monthy daily weekly and hourly. If a task is set before me that I can do or give to an employee it is a task given to e by God to resolve. which is why I spend so much personal time here and working with people like you as i can not hand this off to others while other aspects of my work I can.

How does this happen in reality? 

yesterday I spent 2/3 of my day writing you and a few others and the first third I took calls and picked up a car at the auction, because my two porters were at another location picking up a commercial van. I took the calls directed them to the people that could help got the car from across town which freed up my afternoon and spent the rest of the time here. (till 6pm)

And you are partially correct about what I see, but I'll rectify it a bit: I see what I see, I know what I know. And now back at you: how do you see "beyond"? How do you know there is a next life? Is this perhaps already your 2nd or 3rd life and so you are already experienced with this process?

I see nothing God has not given me to view. I am not special. I am simply a tool God has in a very big box of tools to use. i simply make myself available and do whatever I can that is set before me.

I do understand the concept you are trying to convey, as it's similar to what you may feel towards a loved one. For example, when you are helping your wife out or teaching your kids, you don't care about the energy and investment you are putting in, you are happy knowing that you are helping them and making them happy. Correct me if I misunderstood. However, a wife or a kid are physical entities that you perceive in this reality, they are there, they are hard evidence. But how can you love and be happy serving someone whose existence is not even proven (please provide evidence if you have it)?

but again... you do not have evidence because you demanded it on your terms. seek it on God's terms and you will literally find God. He will be as real as your wife or child. Even then if I had no idea of if God was real or not, look at my lot now. look at my life as I have describes now, verse what someone with a 4th grade literacy rate is slated to accomplish. If my only interaction with God is living a good life I would follow him through that.. but the thing is we are promised so much more personal involvement if we simply do things his way. the more we do things his way the wider our eyes open the more we are able to see God doing things and working the more we are able to hear.

Who spoke about morality? Please don't bring in other topics that were never mentionend or alluded to or meant to enter the scene. If you read my very first post, you'd know by now that I'm a nihilist. To my eyes there is no inherent morality. Morality is something man-made and subjective, so leave it out of the scene. Here I am talking about kids who are harmed physically and forced to kill each other (reads: hurting and suffering physical pain). War may not be "immoral" for  god, but it still brings pain and sufference, it impairs life, it makes it more difficult and annoying to live and understand, it leaves lingering traumas. How is any of this a blessing, considering that this perceived reality is all we have? It just sounds like harming each other for the sake of something whose existence is not even a thing.

when you judge suffering and pain a 'bad thing' or cast it in a negative light your precious nihilism goes out the window as you are taking a moral stand to question a person philosophy or deity that would allow suffering of any kind. True nihilism would say who are you to judge what is suffering what makes your standards of suffering superior to another person philosophy or in this case deity

That said suffering while may seem limitless and often time pointless is often the catalyst for humanity's growth as an evolved species both physically mentally and socially. For instance rape slavery war, few would argue these are the heart of tyranny and suffering. how ever in these three things nothing more has spurred man to grow out of our caves out of our incestious clans pushed both social ecconomic and technological aspects of man these three things have built nations and see others to ruin, but at the end ultimately has shaped the global landscape through pushing people so far out of the lives and comfort they would choose for themselves but in the end as a species have developed because of this suffering. Without suffering we would still be single cell ooze in some primordial pool at the bottom of the ocean.

What ore the suffering God would have us endure always has a limit has his hand ready to catch us when we fall. God's suffering whether it be with a child with cancer or the loose of a wife or loved one may seem pointless at the time but it fosters growth not in the one suffering always but the ones who are made to support the one in pain. I am not a fan of suffering and pain but I understand it now. I understand suffering is the foundation of wisdom temperance and peace with suffering we would have none of these things.

That sounds convenient for him and unfair for others:

here's the thing God's 'fortune' is not based on what I produce. what I am given is test and semi reward of my ability. God does not need me, but I him and this is how he starts.

1) First of all, what's the point of all of this (I asked this before, but well)

to give you an opportunity experience what it is to serve.

2) Assuming the first point is somewhat addressed, under these conditions, it would ironically be more convenient to have nothing, so that he doesn't expect much while it is inconvenient to have a lot because otherwise he'll expect a lot.

yes it would. as nothing ventured is nothing lost, but also nothing gained. If you want proof, take his money invest it and see what he does to double your effort. this is an opportunity to invest in God without spending a dime, just enough effort to see if there will be any return.

Why couldn't he give everyone the same amount?

He gives each according to his ablity which is the heart of fairness.

That would have been fair...

if you were 3 and God was handing out candy.. Seriouly think about this for a minute what is better to know what a person's limits are and give to him everything he can handel and not anthing ore as to tempt or overwhelm him?

Let's say you had a brother who was a crack head in recovery and both of you come to me and want to start a business, both of you are legit have plans but both ask for the same money which would leave about a 100,000 cash flow surplus just sitting in the bank after everything was bought and paid for. Now you be a responsible person can have 100,000 sitting in the bank while maybe the same 100k for your brother is more temptation than he could bear.. he dips in on a long weekend and inside a month everything is gone and he back on the drugs.

IF I knew this to be what was going to happen should i then have given your brother the same money I gave you? IF I were God and absolutely knew wouldn't that be setting your brother up to fail? What then If I gave him a chance by giving him a minimal amount that he could get started with a basic business and then help him one on one from there? which would be better?

Equality here has nothing to do with quantity as we are all not the same. In the parable of the talents God gives us each according to our own abilities. which is far greater gift than holding us to one standard..

or maybe he doesn't like boring settings? Perhaps it's more entertaining to spice things up by creating unbalance? 

Or maybe this is a mercy. Otherwise what if we did not live a full life but God's bar was set so high that we had to be working diligently 95% of the time in a 75 year life span? People who die young would never have a chance. so for those who have that lot are given less to be responsible for.

3) I may sound skeptical about christ's judgement because I'm used to my country's justice which is perverse. Getting involved with the law here only means losing. Even if you are right, you just end up losing money and energy in the process while obtaining nothing, so most of the time it's just wiser to not get involved at all. God created man to his image and likeness, right? What tells me he's any different? Actually, if we are his spitting image, why is he intangible, invisible etc? We aren't like that, but he is, but we are like him, yet we are not. Which is it?

We are like him but lack the authority to do what we want. enter Christ and the law is removed thereby removing our need to follow the law as a means to righteousness. making our adherence or our disobedience from the law a matter of an expression of love or defiance.

The law is only there to judge those who do not accept Christ. those who do are now judged by a different standard and that is love/Agape'

17) my life now is not the reward my life now is the master giving me 10 talents to invest rather than the one i started out with was shown to be faithful and doubble and again and again..

This is always in the scope that there is an afterlife, is this correct?
No this is happening to me now. my work here posts rewards there.

18) What makes you think Christians will be the only Group represented in Heaven? I can think of several deists who have in the bible been identified by Jesus/God as being in heaven several million more Jews Not as many people who claim to be christian will be there than they think they will be.. and many many more with no religious affiliation at all.. all of which can be found in scripture... So what of those born before Christ? Do you not understand the nature of the sacrifice? The sacrifice completes the law meaning it sets up not only the permanence of the do's and don't's of the law but it also full fills and completes all the redemption and atonement requirements. means all sacrifices for redemption and atonement have been met. meaning on the day of our judgement our "righteousness" or ability or quality of worthiness to enter heaven is not based on our deeds but where or not Christ judges us 'worthy' based on who we were and what he gave us to work with.

This point is a bit confusing. So everyone before his sacrifice (which supposedly nullified all men's sins up to that point in time) were discounted of judgement, while all who came after are not justified anymore? Also, your last two sentences are contradictory: first you say that our worthiness is not based on our deeds, then you say that it's based on who we are... but don't our deeds and actions define who we are? 

I'm saying the same sacrifice that works for everyone after he died works in reverse for everyone before he died.. All this means is one does not need to be a member of the christian religious movement. that Christ decides at judgement who is and who is not christian. Our claims to spirituality mean nothing our labels mean nothing it is the judgement of Christ upon your judgement day that makes you 'saved' not the work you do or what you call yourself.

19) actually if you read genesis with out the restrictions put upon it by the church Man with a soul exited the garden about 6000 years ago. before that man with a soul/adam lived in een with God from the beginning of creation of earth 15 mil years ago/or whatever trivial number you wish to plug in. As the end of the 7th day is not preceeded by the fall of man.. meaning God did not created the world in 7 days and on the 8th day adam and eve were cast out hence the YEC view. No the bible makes no distinction between the end of creation and the fall of man which we know to be 6000 years or so ago via the geneologies provided.

Meaning man/homo sapeian outside the garden had no soul loose it was not till (chapter 2 man whom God breathed a living soul) entered the post garden world and his children had children with homosapeins did men have souls.. which bottle neck again at the ark thus post ark all men have souls.

So no. no heaven for monkey man/man evolved from whatever common ancestor explanation you want to use. Yes to the descendants of adam man made in the garden between day 3 and 4 per genesis 2:5

Thanks for clarifying this point. It always puzzled me but noone before was able to answer me. Even if I'm still skeptical about this book or its presumed purpose, at least I can understand better some points now. Thanks.

 

20) not to make light of you efforts, but as you can see a littttle more thought went into my answers then the feel good retard dismissal you cobbled together in the beginning of your post. Again sport people most of us anyway (includes you) are not stupid. the fact that people are fleeing from the church today speaks volumes to this.. why? because the church does not know who the Holy Spirit is today. If you earnestly met God or even as I did an angel and had a sit down, did not utter a word and had a complete conversation detailing your future and past, could you not then see the "fuel" that Christianity has been running on? could you consider that not all people are stupid emotional moron looking to self full fill their broken needs? What if I told you everything happened to me is also offered to each and every single one of you?!? You just have to follow God his way. While salvation can be found any number of ways, you can only approach God for a personal relationship one way, and that is on hs terms.

One more time people are not stupid people know when a religion is being fueled supported and when it is not. it is with the same forethought and critical eye that I wrote the first 1/2 of my original post here was used to write the second. yes i did come to a different conclusion, but to dismiss me because of that is being guilt of the same confirmation bias you accuse mindless emotion seeking religious zombies of.. if that is the case (that you are guilty of the same brain numbing non-thinking move as a religious zombie) what would that make you?

This brings again the practical issues. You talk about "earnestly meeting God or an angel". How does that happen in practice?

for me it was pushing past my comfort zone and helping someone in deep need.

How do I know or confirm it's him and not a random encounter?

content of the message. angels always bring messages that is their primary task with our involvement.

How can I have a conversation with this mister?

A/S/K Ask Seek and knock for the Holy Spirit on His terms and not your own.

I've already tried before, even went for other ways, but it just doesn't manifest.

Again you tried to make your god appear which you conclusively proved does not exist. Next step read the gospels at least and see what Jesus says you must do.

You say you need to approach him on his terms, but again, these terms are just like badly written and vague instructables.

I can only point you in a general direction. let's say I am a 1 talent guy in that God gave me one bag of gold, and doing so I must serve with this one bag of gold as my limiting guidline. Now let's say you being educated smart guy you have been given 5 bags.. now if I tell you how or what to do based off my understand with God through my one talent.. your experience would be non existant or lacking. Or if the oppsite where true and I told you of all the thing God expects from these 5 talents I have you might run away screaming.. When in fact the only requirement is you give God your best effort. You must seek him on your own and follow where he leads. Again start with the NT gospels mat mark luke and john then oneplace.com is a radio preacher archive I like harvest bible chapel with james mcdowell. there are many other bible based teachers but he reads and exposues line by line most of the time not given to scrap book theology. meaning Follow the teachings of people who read blocks of text whole chapters or even books at a time and stay away from people who pull 1/2 a verse here and plug it into 1/2 a verse from another book or chapter then give a lesson several verse scraps glued together. You will eventually feel a need a need for more question to be answered or a need to be around people a need to do something or stop something else. follow those needs/urges so long as you can biblically justify them with what you know and be open to change as your knowledge of the Bible and God will change.

Also, if his terms are anything like Godscreated said (that logic in reverse where evidence comes after believing), then there is just no way someone like me can engage god. It would just mean to turn off my brain.

Faith of the mustard seed is all that God requires according to Jesus Christ Himself. again we expend more faith in science than we are expected to expand with God. If you just honestly follow where God leads, he will be there.

And once again, I did not dismiss you, otherwise I wouldn't have asked more questions and replied to this waterfall of text. I am genuinely trying to understand better, and when something smells I say it, so that you can pick up on what exactly I don't understand and perhaps clarify.

Hope you'll take the time to read and reply to this as well.

[Scientia]

I'll condense my answer or it will fill the entire thread:
1) You are comparing evidence in a court trial vs evidence in science. Do I need to go further? The former is obviously limited as often times you are trying to prove the unprovable, the latter is not confirmed for years until unequivocable proof is shown. Also, some judges may be corrupt and decide a sentence to their liking and you can't help it. They respond to different criteria. In science, even if you wanted to make something false pass as truth, nature will eventually show you otherwise. The same cannot be said in a court.

2) There is no objectivity in what you said, this is why it was disqualified.

3) About biblical answers to questions and evolution and 7 day creation, that logic is backwards. "You can't disprove my god while my god can give you all the answers". Pretty much

4) About the mustard seed of faith, how is that exactly a unit of measure? Are we comparing size? Mass? You know that if you were referring to eg energy, then a mustard seed would be equal to a fuckton of nuclear energy (E = mc2)?

5) Ask, Seek, Knock is your recursive answer. You said I did it on my terms and it didn't work. Then what are his terms?

6) About my uncle: you say that I have a lock on what is eternal and what is not. How do you even know that? And no, his contentment is not offensive. Anyone is free to do what they want with their life.

7) About your dream/revelation: how do you know it wasn't just a dream? I've done all sort of things to summon god, even insulted him, bashed on him, tried to befriend satan to spite him and never had such nightmare. Never ever dreamed about some god entity in 30 years despite putting a lot of work in it (and if you don't know, dreams are a reflection of our subconscious, so you'd expect me to dream about it at some point but nein). 

8) About master&servant: if God was anything like the queen or Obama, first of all he would be factual, he would physically exist in this perceived reality. The queen and Obama may ignore me, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I can see them, if I wanted I could shake hands. Can you say the same for mr God?

9) About science/god/batman: my view of science could be easily equated to most definitions of God laid out there by the many theists. The only difference being that my "god/science" is not merciful/caring/nice but is just neutral and doesn't give a shit. What puzzles me is that theists are convinced that "god/science" is nice and caring and loving.

10) At this point I think you don't even know what infinite means. You've used that term many times in the wrong context. Technically PI is infinite too yet it is finite. An irrational number is infinite as there are many figures after the point, but it's still finite and you can use it in calculations without problems. The assumption of the universe being infinite doesn't stop us from understanding it, so why should god, who is also supposedly infinite, stop us from understanding him/it/her? It's like a self-imposed limitation on your side. Be brave.

11) Following on the above point, if science discovered God why would we be the masters? If I lived in a tyrannical regime and found out what's the tyrant's name and where he lives, it still wouldn't change that I have to serve him or I get slashed. But let's make the opposite example too: why would God require to be superior in order to seek us out? It sounds like a child play "I will play with you only if I get to be the king!". Speak about lowering to our level....

12) If God used man made technology to solve these problems, then indeed there is no need for a God. You are just equating God to humans here. Being above man would mean he can push it further, yet he doesn't. If you know he can do more, then would you mind specifying what exactly he can do more? Or so far there is 0 evidence of the greater feats he did, meaning that so far he didn't do anything that couldn't be brought back to simple man. And to answer your question: if I were God, I wouldn't create anything at all.

13) Ah, so it's not years of studying and practice that let you do operations, it's the hand of God. Sure, and what when doctors make a mistake? God was having a coffee? Has it never crossed your mind that it was your fingers and mind alone that created those two patents? Why must it be some untangible mystical entity? 

14) About my auntie, you overlooked a particular: she was suffering during that period. If death just came all of a sudden, then I'd agree with you. Even in my case, if I suddenly had a stroke and died, I'd be fine with that. What's better way to die? But if prior to death I had to suffer for 10-15y and take medicines nonstop, is it still so nice? Sure, death would still be an end to the suffering, but should we consider the 10-15y of suffering as a reward too? Or let's just overlook this particular because it's not convenient? The logic you are using here could be used to also justify the exact opposite of what you are saying in every case.

15) About you standing before God in judgement, I guess it still refers to that dream? 

16) If you were a retard as you say and it was God's intervention to have made you the successful man you are today, why doesn't this happen to other people in your same situation? If it was a reproducible phenomenon, then it would be worth investigating it, but if it's an isolated case, isn't it easier to justify with coincidence or simply with the fact that you aren't a retard as you believe? It somehow feels forced to bring in godlike entities to justify your life success. So ye, it boils down to what you think it's more likely: magical being making you successful or you making the right choices at the right times.

17) I had to quote this:

that's stupid. what constrains a man are his constraints. His limitations. We are all limited, some far more than others. Especially in society. As society is what decides how to measure a man.

A man who does not know his station in life rather a man who is not bound by his limitations are quickly knocked down. just look how Christians are generally treated here in a place who prize non christian thought over what is deem 'rational thought.' You can not tell me my constrains are my own when it is you and you peers who determine my place and position based on what I believe?

What a bold statement. That sentence alone helps me better understand all your responses so far. 
1) YOU are putting limitations on yourself on your own. 
2) Society does not decide anything. 
3) Just look at yourself alone, as if you were an hermit: what are your limitations?

I 100% disagree with what you said in that post, but it is a subjective point of view.

18) I read the entire thread where you narrate your story (including the star trek jokes). It is quite a tale, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt that it really happened as you described, however that in my book is still not conclusive demonstration of god's existence. Assuming it all played out like you said it did, it sounds more like a con artist tale than a meeting with an angel. Why do I think like that? Let's play pretend:
Let's pretend that I am a hobo who needs to move from A to C by passing through B. I scout the nearby 7/11 for some potential "investor", and I make up a story of needing a ride to B while putting in some god's stuff argument. If the interlocutor does not fall for it, I move on to the next target. Let's say I finally get someone whose lifestory resonates with my con story: how is that someone supposed to know that I am a con and not an angel? I know I'm not an angel, I tell him I am and he believes it. Depending on how much I ask him, I may have ruined or messed up that man's life and he'll believe it was God. 
What differentiate that someone from you? How do you tell one from the other? 

19) About your promises, before you said that your success in this reality wasn't the real reward and that you actually had to deal with hardships anyway (heroin addiction of your wife). So what gives? If you are successful it is god keeping his promises, but if you have to endure other hardships then it's because this is not the real reward? Sorry, but it sounds like you are trying to justify everything depending on how it is more convenient depending on the situation.

20) If my happiness was bound to live in misery without arms/legs, I'd rather be "unhappy".

21) Oh oh

again from the god library.. Our brains are not central processors or independant units. meaning our brains are not the self contain computers we have been taught them to be. our brains are transmitter/receivers. the signals we can monitor are sent and receive from the "cloud" for the lack of a better term.. Maybe matrix would be a better term. In that we are a consciousness that resides in a different dimension that what we see live and experience day to day, we inhabit these bodies as avitar/they are our host. The body consists of a spirit and strength stength being a physical form, and spirit being basic cognitive and primal reactions. our soul is what makes us, us it is our higher reasoning and our consciousness at large this is what resides in the 'cloud' or heavenly dimension. so when we die. our link to the cloud in constantly being updated till we die or till this host body dies, and we wake up from the matrix, and ushered into judgement. As we are "absent from the body and present with the Lord." 

This is how I pictured it long ago. I was active in another forum back then https://www.psychforums.com/depersonaliz...ml#p916802 , and this was the sketch I drew: https://imgur.com/GcQxzCj
However, this was just an intuition of mine, my own speculation of how it felt like. You can read more about this view of mine on that link I provided. Just to avoid misunderstanding, the "god" I'm referring to in that picture is not the christian god or some other renown god. It's more like I was classifying myself as god. 

22) If the hell you describe is the emptiness where Christ/god doesn't love you, then I think I can survive that. I've lived my life by learning from my own experiences AND from other's experiences. I learnt that bonding with your fellow human constitutes a weakness and may hurt in the long run and so I practiced to live happily without anyone's love. Even if tomorrow humanity disappeared and I was the last man standing, I would find something to occupy my time with. Linking back to point 21, this is what makes me feel invincible in this world. In psychology, this is also appointed as dissociation/depersonalization.

23) So our purpose is that of being slaves?

24) So he created us, dropped us in a big world and made us "filter" ourselves so only the elite could go back to the garden. Again, why go through the trouble? Why create adam in the first place? Couldn't he have stayed put and just rest in his garden? It feels like he was bored and decided to create a big number of humans and test them so to see who would be worthy enough to keep in the shelf (garden) and who to leave in the dumpster (earth). What kind of game is that? It sounds like Saw movies.

25) There is a lot of misinterpretation below, so I'll have to quote it directly:

again the only faith needed Jesus estimates is as small as a mustard seed meaning all you need is the smallest amount to honestly seek out the truth and follow God where he leads. if you can do this one thing He/God promises to literally move mountains of doubt out of your way. This Christ promises to all of us not just me. What other guarantee do you need? what about the guarantee of mini ice age of the 70s and 80s? or in the late 90's global warming or now global climate change, or the guarantee of a hole in the ozone that has been sealed up before our bans on cfc was in full effect? or what about the guarantee of the 1980 that if you ate from the nutritional pyramid you'd live a long and healthy life? (Now the pyramid is the exact opposite) To believe in any of this takes a measure of faith. why because there in lies an unknown or at the very least a unaccountable variable that can indeed falsify every single claim. So then if all things being equal what more faith is required to earnestly seek out the truth in God verse the truth in say the mini ice age? or a hole in the ozone or whatever new the sky is falling 'science' that a tax or a change in product consumption will save is all?

1) Global warming has always been a thing since the beginning of times. It's not something that started only recently. Earth is NATURALLY warming up for 2 reasons: the sun getting bigger and therefore getting closer to the earth and the amount of greenhouse pollutants (namely CO2) increasing since forever. Did you know that most of CO2 emissions come from natural sources, such as decomposition of organic bodies and vulcans? Yeah, vulcans spreading their lava and burning km2 of forests produces a huge deal of CO2. Humans surely don't help with their activities, but again keep in mind that earth is naturally warming up on its own.
2) The hole in the ozone is not an actual "hole" that has to be "sealed". Please again, there seems to be a lot of misinformation on your side about the sciency side of things. The hole refers to the layer of ozone getting thinner, not getting actually pierced. That would be equal to have a high powered laser cutting on earth as it spins, it would be devastating lol.
If this was your interpretation of these "prophecies", then I'm only getting further from believing it. Society does speculate on these things, but first of all they are natural phenomenons that have always been at play. Men did worsen the situation, but it was always there.

26) All of the responses that follow after are pretty much based on your personal experience and your view of it. A self fulfilled prophecy for some, or the actual truth of god's existence. As it is a subjective experience, we don't have much say in it. You pretty much see his messages where you feel it, as it is to be expected after feeling changed by this experience. The other response about following god on his terms was already asked before.

27) About morality and pain, what are you even talking about? Pain is a physical signal from your body telling you that engaging in that painful activity may compromise the functionality of the pained limb/organ. Why don't you keep your hand on fire? It hurts. You don't want it and you'll try to avoid it at all costs. Why do you go to the dentist? It's going to hurt, does it make the dentist immoral? Does it make you immoral? No, you do it to avoid further pain in the future by enduring a little pain now. All in all humans try to minimize pain in their life. It's how we are physically coded in this perceived reality. It has nothing to do with abstract concepts such as morality.

Pain in itself does not have any value from a nihilist point of view. It is there, it hurts, but it's irrelevant whether it hurts or not. That's the nihilistic take. If you say that your god shares the same view, then that would make your god nihilistic too. Would that be a positive or negative thing? Answer: it wouldn't matter, as nothing really does.

After that you go on about humanity and society evolution throughout time and I don't see God's hand in all of this. To me you are just praising humans for their ability to grow. So ye, ok. 

28) Why do you need God? Many people do well without believing in it. Are those happy unbelievers the absolute worst for not needing God? And what about those people who believe and find solace in another god such as Allah or Buddha? Again, let's try to look at the whole picture here, let's take into account everyone. 

29) How do I take his money? Will some guy offer me money tomorrow?

30) 

He gives each according to his ablity which is the heart of fairness.

This is pretty much the law of the fittest. I agree with the view that people who can give more do deserve more, but my view doesn't include any godlike entity in this.

31) To answer your simulation about the crackhead brother: from my point of view, it would have been fair to give both the same amount and then see the responsible brother raise up and be successful and the crackhead to fall down. I'm inclined to think that we deserve what we get. 

32) What do you mean with "we lack the authority to do what we want"?

33) About Christ's judgement: what criteria does he use to judge us? 

34) The amount of literature that is required to learn all the gospel is titanic. Do I really need to take a theological university course for it? That sounds insane.

[Drich]

I'll condense my answer or it will fill the entire thread:
1) You are comparing evidence in a court trial vs evidence in science.

and you are trying to minimize it. Evidence found in court determines the immediate state of a life. where it is incarcerated or not where or not it is imprisoned for life where or not a life is to be taken. in what field of science demands a life of the scientist if the scientist is wrong? Yes some scientist pay with their lives testing false or wrong hypothesis, but I am talking millions of lives each and every day are determined by a system of eyewitness evidence you are trying to desperately trivialize and dismiss.

Eye witness testimony takes on far greater weight than you are prepared to acknowledge. Our whole society is based what collaborative eye witnesses agree upon. here with Christianity the testimony is not the only thing being presented either.the testimony is simply a personal guarantee that what one experienced is also waiting for you.

Do I need to go further?

Can you? To undermine the testimony of the eye witness is to undermine the whole criminal justice system. So seriously can you go further without over turning every single case where Eye witness testimony was the key to a conviction?

The former is obviously limited as often times you are trying to prove the unprovable, the latter is not confirmed for years until unequivocal proof is shown.

I see that you tried to go further but you statement if evidence that you can not. It seems you do not even understand how the criminal justice system work let alone science. neither work on the idea of unequivocal proof. Science is all about the best peer review theory and criminal justice is looking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 2000 years of people claiming basically the same thing is a little beyond a reasonable doubt.

Also, some judges may be corrupt and decide a sentence to their liking and you can't help it.

If if and buts where candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas!!! The judge here is you sport. are you corrupt? are you so in the bag for science you mind will not allow you to judge a eye witness fairly? if so the no evidence scientific or not will allow you to open your mind to God. Here is a test. If you are looking for evidence for God truly, then please describe what would be enough for you. evidence in what form? what would you have to do or see to be satisfied?

They respond to different criteria. In science, even if you wanted to make something false pass as truth, nature will eventually show you otherwise. The same cannot be said in a court.

the only truth in science is truth is whatever the collective says it is. In court I would like to say we get it right the vast majority of the time. How can I say this? because I've spent time in jail and been to a prison for a 'visit.' Neither place is filled with nice people. or people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, everyone there will get over on you if they can!

So like it or not it seem that the criminal justice systems and it's burden of proof works far better than you are willing to admit.

2) There is no objectivity in what you said, this is why it was disqualified.

that's not true, lest you are defining objectivity differently.
So define objectivity.

3) About biblical answers to questions and evolution and 7 day creation, that logic is backwards. "You can't disprove my god while my god can give you all the answers". Pretty much

No, the seven creation thing simply requalifies creation as a viable non conflicting addition to anything evolution demands. It simply allows believers to hold on to their faith without have to sacrifice any scientific belief that maybe required of them.

4) About the mustard seed of faith, how is that exactly a unit of measure? Are we comparing size? Mass? You know that if you were referring to eg energy, then a mustard seed would be equal to a fuckton of nuclear energy (E = mc2)?

Dude, how big is a mustard seed? aagain it seems as if you missed it or ignored what I said, it is the faith required to simply follow the directions Christ left in an effort to find God. you basically have to be willing to Ask Seek and knock God's way and not your own.

5) Ask, Seek, Knock is your recursive answer. You said I did it on my terms and it didn't work. Then what are his terms?

Again found in luke 11 this time I will post it:
5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”

The Holy Spirit is God... What more proof of God does one need than to be sat in front of God? to as God a question and receive an answer to pray and effect change to have that "capacity switch" turn on. To see and hear things you could not before to have access to Him and his wisdom. then to put it all to use and it all turn out to work and be true.

6) About my uncle: you say that I have a lock on what is eternal and what is not. How do you even know that? And no, his contentment is not offensive. Anyone is free to do what they want with their life.

Not sure what this is in reference to.

7) About your dream/revelation: how do you know it wasn't just a dream? I've done all sort of things to summon god, even insulted him, bashed on him, tried to befriend satan to spite him and never had such nightmare. Never ever dreamed about some god entity in 30 years despite putting a lot of work in it (and if you don't know, dreams are a reflection of our subconscious, so you'd expect me to dream about it at some point but nein). 

It was a dream! Which is consistant with how the NT says God will communicate with us in the last days. (Dreams and visions.) This was a dream because I went to bed and woke up in the same bed!

Is your question how do I know my dream actually depicts truth? Because of hell. I knew nothing of it besides what movies and TV told us about it most of which parallels the works of Dante' which is a multi layer place where there is a big red satan with a pitch fork and rules hell and torments people in hell. which is nothing like the bible describes or what I felt and witnessed. My dream of hell was biblically accurate before I knew what the bible had to say about hell.

8) About master&servant: if God was anything like the queen or Obama, first of all he would be factual, he would physically exist in this perceived reality.

And i am telling you for those who know the Holy Spirit there is no difference. God is a real just as Obama is real just like the queen is real.

The queen and Obama may ignore me, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I can see them, if I wanted I could shake hands. Can you say the same for mr God?

I told you I did as much!

9) About science/god/batman: my view of science could be easily equated to most definitions of God laid out there by the many theists. The only difference being that my "god/science" is not merciful/caring/nice but is just neutral and doesn't give a shit. What puzzles me is that theists are convinced that "god/science" is nice and caring and loving.

No where in the Holy Bible does it say God is omnibenevolent (All nice all merciful all loving.) that's a religious teaching based on john 3:16.. Where God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whom ever believes shall not perish in hell but have eternal life. but did you see what those people missed? God's agape' love is reserved, it is conditional for those who believe.. those who don't can literally go to hell as far as God is concerned.

So then why would we show any greater concern for those who elect hell and non service when we all elect to serve?

10) At this point I think you don't even know what infinite means. You've used that term many times in the wrong context. Technically PI is infinite too yet it is finite. An irrational number is infinite as there are many figures after the point, but it's still finite and you can use it in calculations without problems. The assumption of the universe being infinite doesn't stop us from understanding it, so why should god, who is also supposedly infinite, stop us from understanding him/it/her? It's like a self-imposed limitation on your side. Be brave.

I did not say you had to stop understanding God. I said if you live you whole life learning as much as you could everyday, you would run out of life before you ran out of God to understand. So for you to presume one could have all the answers is foolish. that said, when one is bonded with the Holy SPirit While we may not have the answers, He does. That is why I am here is to learn more as you all ask questions I would never think to ask in turn I learn more about God. Again the whole assimilation of evolution into creation was all God based on a series of questions one of you asked. I was personally happy with I can see how both ways worked and was happy to say IDK and then someone asked well how would both ways work and it was like i was up loaded everything I needed to know, first shot. I just started writing and had to put the paragraphs in order as I was getting them from every which direction.

11) Following on the above point, if science discovered God why would we be the masters?

what is the scientific method. Experimentation and duplication of the results. Meaning we would have to be able to plug in a certain set of parameters and that would demand God kick out a specific response. basically having God on demand. IE I rub a lamp 3 times and a god pops out and he grants me wishes for the good deeds I do. Or if I pray xyz God will give me 123. When in fact In the statement I am the alpha and omega the beginning and the end demands God's character be his own, as such he demanded we approached with A/S/K not the scientific method. If we can obtain God through our method then we are the begnning and end and his word means very little. So when I say you hide and look for God the one place he can never be found.. you literally are looking for Godin the place where if he was found you would have control over him!

If I lived in a tyrannical regime and found out what's the tyrant's name and where he lives, it still wouldn't change that I have to serve him or I get slashed. But let's make the opposite example too: why would God require to be superior in order to seek us out? It sounds like a child play "I will play with you only if I get to be the king!". Speak about lowering to our level....

because he is superior in every way. because we are slaves petitioning to become sons. because we can not take anything God does not give freely.

12) If God used man made technology to solve these problems, then indeed there is no need for a God.[/quote] are you so foolish to think all answers will have a technological answer? I see technology as double edged sword that would kill the sword holder as fast as anyone we would use this blade against. AI is a scarry example that most have come to accept, our SCI-Fi is littered with precautionary tales of the creation of man over throwing it's masters.

You are just equating God to humans here. Being above man would mean he can push it further, yet he doesn't. If you know he can do more, then would you mind specifying what exactly he can do more?

Hell no. once you receive the Spirit you learn fast Everything has a cost. the more 'god does' the more inept you become, the dependant you are. Granted I am as far into life as I want to be and be this dependant o anyone or thing. I owe so much to God I already feel I could never pay him back and I feel the debt compounds daily, so no I would not want anything more than what it takes to keep all my plates spinning. To closer you are to God the less you ask for in prayer. I even hesitate to ask for others outside of general stuff.

Or so far there is 0 evidence of the greater feats he did, meaning that so far he didn't do anything that couldn't be brought back to simple man.

Until he begins to work in your life if you let him. if you do then you will quickly come to understand there is nothing you can do to support where he takes you, and that all you are is not your own and you are a steward of this life.

And to answer your question: if I were God, I wouldn't create anything at all.

good thing you are not god.

13) Ah, so it's not years of studying and practice that let you do operations, it's the hand of God. Sure, and what when doctors make a mistake? God was having a coffee?

again why is death a bad thing? why is a mistake a bad non godly gift?

Has it never crossed your mind that it was your fingers and mind alone that created those two patents? Why must it be some untangible mystical entity? 

I was literally outside watching myself as this all happened. I saw components in my mind and I quickly drew out their electrical symbol on the page in relation to one another and then with a ruler connected all the lines with different color pens representing various voltage changes. again something these guys could not do in 6 months of collaboration. It is hard to explain this stuff did not orginate with me it was like it was beamed in and I did everything I could to keep up with the pictures.. I was 100% drawing watchingmy self draw to make sure I did not make any mistakes.

Again when it is you, you know where your limitations are and you know what is not you yet it pours in at your limitations. You know when you are just able to figure stuff out, it's another to pull specs and electrical components out of a 3000 page catalog and put them together in such away on a weekend to work without having the facilities to test. again I tested everything for the first time that monday morning early in front of everyone. I had one chaperone who literally watch me and one of my guys put all of this together in a weekend and then off to the factory to proove it all worked! Then following few day optimized and went from 4 hour run time to just under 12. This sold 4 test units which I went to NYC to install personally it took a week and 1/2 then they ran 2 years and 25 more were bought at which point I was made an offer I could not refuse (in a good way) after that I broke ties and went a new direction. which I am now selling a third (non patented)/too similar to what already exists.. I took a base model industry standard truck and 'optimized' the commercial delivery capabilities and now sell them as a manufacturer/commercial and retail car truck dealer.

Again, the complexity of all of these working parts is well beyond anything I can do myself. What's more no one who works for me is a specialist in anything they do. I simply taught everyone their little part or got someone who could. All my people are second chance people most struggled with diplomas all have criminal records. Again, one or two things go right yes quicidence. but for things to go right in realistically 4 different businesses under two roofs you need a team of highly trained and qualified professionals or you Need God pulling the strings. Maximising profitability and minimizing loss protecting us from 1,000,000 pit falls everyday. We get what we need exactly when we need it everyday. we don't run on huge surpluses we have just enough, and when we need more we get more and when things fall off we us up what we saved. It's like manna from heaven we get just enough to take care of what we need to daily. This to me is great. most people can't operate like this let alone expand. again we have been serving this way almost 20 years now and lord willing I can finish out doing this as it allows me time to work with you all.

14) About my auntie, you overlooked a particular: she was suffering during that period. If death just came all of a sudden, then I'd agree with you. Even in my case, if I suddenly had a stroke and died, I'd be fine with that. What's better way to die? But if prior to death I had to suffer for 10-15y and take medicines nonstop, is it still so nice? Sure, death would still be an end to the suffering, but should we consider the 10-15y of suffering as a reward too? Or let's just overlook this particular because it's not convenient? The logic you are using here could be used to also justify the exact opposite of what you are saying in every case.

in this case her suffering wasn't for her it was for you. it was for you to test your house of faith you built on the sand to see if it would stand. it was for you to call out to your idea of God and see if he were real enough to help your aunt. It turns out he wasn't and you learned that if you continued to follow your path, believing in your false (built on sand) version of faith and God it would have cost you hell. Now in part to her suffering you know your idea of God is wrong in part you thought God was all merciful your god was all kind your false god was all caring, sounds good, but today you found out the God of the bible can be a little dickish, when it comes to your understanding of compassion and suffering. Now you have found some truth you can begin to sink a foundation, so if you build your nex house of faith you know not to look for God to provide you with the easy life you want for yourself or others.

15) About you standing before God in judgement, I guess it still refers to that dream? 

I dream that plays more real in my mind than my wedding day.

16) If you were a retard as you say and it was God's intervention to have made you the successful man you are today, why doesn't this happen to other people in your same situation?

It does. but stories like this are dismissed all the time. they assign a scientific term to the guy and assume God can not work through that term. Or like you they blame the schools for leaving a smart person behind. or they say he was a late bloomer or he is a liar or it is all just good luck. I have heard it all, but the truth is I don't play the lottery any more (Unless it's 1/2 a billion or more) as I far rather see how God full fills the second half of his promise to me.

If it was a reproducible phenomenon, then it would be worth investigating it, but if it's an isolated case, isn't it easier to justify with coincidence or simply with the fact that you aren't a retard as you believe? It somehow feels forced to bring in godlike entities to justify your life success. So ye, it boils down to what you think it's more likely: magical being making you successful or you making the right choices at the right times.

what I am telling you is that they have investigated this over and over and found a word or a series of scientific words to explain us and again wrongfully assume God can not work through these terms. like high functioning autism or asperger's or misdiagnosised as a child or any number of other things. anything but God. look I know me I know my limts and still struggle with them daily. Here's the proof in it all. I am not a one off. God is not holding me in any special regard. What he has done for me he has promised for the rest of you a-holes.
All one need do is A/S/K on his terms and not your own

What a bold statement. That sentence alone helps me better understand all your responses so far. 
1) YOU are putting limitations on yourself on your own. 

I have placed no limits on my ability to anything otherwise I would not be here. However when you walk on a job and can read the manuals, your boss tends to limit your progression in the company.

2) Society does not decide anything. 

that's because you have not have any scholastic limitations placed on ou by soceity. you have never been refused a job you have never been segregated in class as a child you where not ever made to wear a special badge to help track your whereabouts in school/help you get to class.
3) you have never been excluded because of skin color or the language you spoke.

3) Just look at yourself alone, as if you were an hermit: what are your limitations?

Again because of my current station in life kinda invalidates your assessment of personal limitations. I have always been willing to do anything, but my situation limited me on when and where. it was not till God came into my life allowed me to follow whatever path he had for me.

Example pre gad highest paying job 4.25 per hour cleaning up shops after mechanics, at a dealer ship. other wise day laborer picked oranges did duct work in an attic works at paint and body sanding panels (could not do that right lasted 2 weeks) workat at tire store organizing tire dumpster. After God:94ish got job in refrigeration business (no experience what so ever) in one year went from min wage to 10.00 per hour, second year moved to flate rate made 40K 3 year was hired on by competitor for 28.00 an hour lasted a year went into business my self the first time with a partner failed. after 9 months. went back to first refrigeration job under condition was given my own service truck and route. worked there in that spot till 2001 about 4 years made between 75 and 90K paid off my first company debt bought my first home and a new truck dirt bake and jet ski, was all mortgaged up then was told the owners son wanted my job. We where the same age and he figured if I could do it... So I packed it all up and went back to competitor I worked for before and he was also quitting said he was opening his own company, he said work for me for 2 years and I will make you a 50% partner. I did two years came and went he gave us a two paid vacation in some ski resort and then disappeared for a whole month. no pay no invoices nothing going out worked till the credit cards stopped, then he came back next day would not give me any clue as to what happened then a month later did it again for two weeks.. Was approached by the man who put me in business for myself and the rest is history.

Again my limits are not my own if they were I would not have taken the opportunities when presented.

I 100% disagree with what you said in that post, but it is a subjective point of view.

18) I read the entire thread where you narrate your story (including the star trek jokes). It is quite a tale, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt that it really happened as you described, however that in my book is still not conclusive demonstration of god's existence. Assuming it all played out like you said it did, it sounds more like a con artist tale than a meeting with an angel. Why do I think like that? Let's play pretend:

Again, This is my telling, doubting thomas need and got to put his hands in the wounds of Christ. That's the whole point to my telling of my story is to relay to you that God is willing to do the same type of thing for me as he is willing to do for you. Now Imagine how much doubt I have after living though all of that. which is why it is Said He is willing to cast a mountain of doubt into the ocean if you can simply generate a mustardseeds worth of faith. again we expend more faith in global warming than what is needed for God to work a life as he has mine.

Let's pretend that I am a hobo who needs to move from A to C by passing through B. I scout the nearby 7/11 for some potential "investor", and I make up a story of needing a ride to B while putting in some god's stuff argument. If the interlocutor does not fall for it, I move on to the next target. Let's say I finally get someone whose lifestory resonates with my con story: how is that someone supposed to know that I am a con and not an angel? I know I'm not an angel, I tell him I am and he believes it. Depending on how much I ask him, I may have ruined or messed up that man's life and he'll believe it was God. 
What differentiate that someone from you? How do you tell one from the other? 

If you read the OP of that story I make the point you just made in that it is not about where the angel came from as it is more about the origins of the message and of they ring true or not. You are focused on the material man to determine authenticity when in truth a messenger is nothing without the message. let's say you met the angel that told marry she was going to have Jesus.. real deal guy. for you there is no doubt who this fella is, but he has nothing to say to you. now let put you in front of your computer at home in your current situation bang out doubt insulsts and the like.. then you come across one of GC posts that while you dismiss cuts you to your quick, you know what is being said may be a generic quip for GC but speaks to you directly to the point you almost feel bad or a conviction as if God were indeed calling you. I ask you now who is the angel who is the messenger God sent? The guy who spoke to marry or the guy who deep down has pierced your heart in some way?

At the time my idea of angels were not dirty homeless black men. but the message rang 100% true, the fact I spoke to in in thought shook me to no end, the fact he recited special prayers I prayed in secrete shook me to my core, the very wrds I used to pray for me and another person almost had me stop driving. this man not only pierced my heart with out a word of who I was or what I was about He knew me eve if I could not fully recognise him today

19) About your promises, before you said that your success in this reality wasn't the real reward and that you actually had to deal with hardships anyway (heroin addiction of your wife). So what gives? If you are successful it is god keeping his promises, but if you have to endure other hardships then it's because this is not the real reward? Sorry, but it sounds like you are trying to justify everything depending on how it is more convenient depending on the situation.

again not rewards, but service and responsibility. yes at this/my level I live better than I did but is not a worker worth his pay? Is your pay check a reward? My station is how I am being compensated here. and what I do with this compensation determines if I proceed on to more or if what I have is cut back.

20) If my happiness was bound to live in misery without arms/legs, I'd rather be "unhappy".

but why do you assume you would be miserable without arms and legs? if you find happiness you ought to seek it regardless what form it takes.

21) Oh oh

again from the god library.. Our brains are not central processors or independant units. meaning our brains are not the self contain computers we have been taught them to be. our brains are transmitter/receivers. the signals we can monitor are sent and receive from the "cloud" for the lack of a better term.. Maybe matrix would be a better term. In that we are a consciousness that resides in a different dimension that what we see live and experience day to day, we inhabit these bodies as avitar/they are our host. The body consists of a spirit and strength stength being a physical form, and spirit being basic cognitive and primal reactions. our soul is what makes us, us it is our higher reasoning and our consciousness at large this is what resides in the 'cloud' or heavenly dimension. so when we die. our link to the cloud in constantly being updated till we die or till this host body dies, and we wake up from the matrix, and ushered into judgement. As we are "absent from the body and present with the Lord." 

This is how I pictured it long ago. I was active in another forum back then https://www.psychforums.com/depersonaliz...ml#p916802 , and this was the sketch I drew: https://imgur.com/GcQxzCj
However, this was just an intuition of mine, my own speculation of how it felt like. You can read more about this view of mine on that link I provided. Just to avoid misunderstanding, the "god" I'm referring to in that picture is not the christian god or some other renown god. It's more like I was classifying myself as god. 

22) If the hell you describe is the emptiness where Christ/god doesn't love you, then I think I can survive that. [/quote] did you miss the bit about being consumed by Hell fire? did you miss the part where it illicites the same response as if being burned? that eventually it consumes the soul or at least the part that holds together out sanity?

I've lived my life by learning from my own experiences AND from other's experiences. I learnt that bonding with your fellow human constitutes a weakness and may hurt in the long run and so I practiced to live happily without anyone's love.

the loss of God love only begets a deep regret. it is not the sum total of the hell experience.

Even if tomorrow humanity disappeared and I was the last man standing, I would find something to occupy my time with. Linking back to point 21, this is what makes me feel invincible in this world. In psychology, this is also appointed as dissociation/depersonalization.

till your eye glasses broke..

23) So our purpose is that of being slaves?

more or less. in those days inorder to marry in or become a member of the famly you wrkes first as a slave. same kinda of thing here. We are saved from sin which makes us members or citizens f heaven, but the great reward comes if you serve and become a son of God.

24) So he created us, dropped us in a big world and made us "filter" ourselves so only the elite could go back to the garden. Again, why go through the trouble? [/quote] so we would know why we are where we are and forever after not be tempted by the idea of sin. as in this life we know of the pain and suffering it causes.

Why create adam in the first place?

same above,

Couldn't he have stayed put and just rest in his garden? It feels like he was bored and decided to create a big number of humans and test them so to see who would be worthy enough to keep in the shelf (garden) and who to leave in the dumpster (earth). What kind of game is that? It sounds like Saw movies.

Those outside the garden were not ever have said to been created with a soul. Adam and his decendants were created/born with souls.

25) There is a lot of misinterpretation below, so I'll have to quote it directly:

again the only faith needed Jesus estimates is as small as a mustard seed meaning all you need is the smallest amount to honestly seek out the truth and follow God where he leads. if you can do this one thing He/God promises to literally move mountains of doubt out of your way. This Christ promises to all of us not just me. What other guarantee do you need? what about the guarantee of mini ice age of the 70s and 80s? or in the late 90's global warming or now global climate change, or the guarantee of a hole in the ozone that has been sealed up before our bans on cfc was in full effect? or what about the guarantee of the 1980 that if you ate from the nutritional pyramid you'd live a long and healthy life? (Now the pyramid is the exact opposite) To believe in any of this takes a measure of faith. why because there in lies an unknown or at the very least a unaccountable variable that can indeed falsify every single claim. So then if all things being equal what more faith is required to earnestly seek out the truth in God verse the truth in say the mini ice age? or a hole in the ozone or whatever new the sky is falling 'science' that a tax or a change in product consumption will save is all?

1) Global warming has always been a thing since the beginning of times. It's not something that started only recently. Earth is NATURALLY warming up for 2 reasons: the sun getting bigger and therefore getting closer to the earth and the amount of greenhouse pollutants (namely CO2) increasing since forever. Did you know that most of CO2 emissions come from natural sources, such as decomposition of organic bodies and vulcans? Yeah, vulcans spreading their lava and burning km2 of forests produces a huge deal of CO2. Humans surely don't help with their activities, but again keep in mind that earth is naturally warming up on its own.
2) The hole in the ozone is not an actual "hole" that has to be "sealed". Please again, there seems to be a lot of misinformation on your side about the sciency side of things. The hole refers to the layer of ozone getting thinner, not getting actually pierced. That would be equal to have a high powered laser cutting on earth as it spins, it would be devastating lol.
If this was your interpretation of these "prophecies", then I'm only getting further from believing it. Society does speculate on these things, but first of all they are natural phenomenons that have always been at play. Men did worsen the situation, but it was always there.

26) All of the responses that follow after are pretty much based on your personal experience and your view of it. A self fulfilled prophecy for some, or the actual truth of god's existence. As it is a subjective experience, we don't have much say in it. You pretty much see his messages where you feel it, as it is to be expected after feeling changed by this experience. The other response about following god on his terms was already asked before.

27) About morality and pain, what are you even talking about? Pain is a physical signal from your body telling you that engaging in that painful activity may compromise the functionality of the pained limb/organ. Why don't you keep your hand on fire? It hurts. You don't want it and you'll try to avoid it at all costs. Why do you go to the dentist? It's going to hurt, does it make the dentist immoral? Does it make you immoral? No, you do it to avoid further pain in the future by enduring a little pain now. All in all humans try to minimize pain in their life. It's how we are physically coded in this perceived reality. It has nothing to do with abstract concepts such as morality.

Pain in itself does not have any value from a nihilist point of view. It is there, it hurts, but it's irrelevant whether it hurts or not. That's the nihilistic take. If you say that your god shares the same view, then that would make your god nihilistic too. Would that be a positive or negative thing? Answer: it wouldn't matter, as nothing really does.

After that you go on about humanity and society evolution throughout time and I don't see God's hand in all of this. To me you are just praising humans for their ability to grow. So ye, ok. 

So here is exactly what I meant about faith in science and how it takes less faith for belief in God.,, Now to you since 2018 the hole narritive has taken a sharp change in that now there was never a hole. when in 85 when the were selling the taxes that would save us there was a definate hole.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...eclining1/

28) Why do you need God? Many people do well without believing in it. Are those happy unbelievers the absolute worst for not needing God? And what about those people who believe and find solace in another god such as Allah or Buddha? Again, let's try to look at the whole picture here, let's take into account everyone. 

Honestly this is a bull site question. you start out by asking why do you need god then want me to give you an answer that takes into everyone into account. I need God because of everything he has done for me. I would be nothing without him and again for that one moment I knew what His love means and I want nothing more than to return to the al encompassing love.

29) How do I take his money? Will some guy offer me money tomorrow?

idk..

30) 

He gives each according to his ablity which is the heart of fairness.

This is pretty much the law of the fittest. I agree with the view that people who can give more do deserve more, but my view doesn't include any godlike entity in this.

don't matter how you identify it, Christ himself says God works this way.

31) To answer your simulation about the crackhead brother: from my point of view, it would have been fair to give both the same amount and then see the responsible brother raise up and be successful and the crackhead to fall down. I'm inclined to think that we deserve what we get. 

then you would be most likely responsible to see the crack head die inside of a week of a overdose.

32) What do you mean with "we lack the authority to do what we want"?

to be God to be the ultimate say of what is mral and what is not.

33) About Christ's judgement: what criteria does he use to judge us? 

the law, if you are not save and whether or not you have accepted the atonement offered.

34) The amount of literature that is required to learn all the gospel is titanic. Do I really need to take a theological university course for it? That sounds insane.

tell that to the illiterate who just magical began to pick it up.. As it says in scripture you do not need a teacher as the very one (the holy Spirit) who wrote the scriptures also instructs you. all you need is the bible
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

You don't need commentary. God will give you what you can handle as you read it. Meaning a cursory read through will most likely draw out major contrasts between your version of God and the God of the bible/you will want to point out contradictions as you see them. This is seeking God. take those contradictions to me or one like me and pray "dear god help me figure out the truth amen" till you find something that jives.

[Nay_Sayer]

FSM bless your little heart.

---

Drippys wall of verbal diarrhea is so big I cannot quote it properly.  bless his little heart.

RAmen

[Drich]

FSM bless your little heart.

---

Drippys wall of verbal diarrhea is so big I cannot quote it properly.  bless his little heart.

RAmen

I didn't mean to intimidate you to the point it provoked you respond non topically. You know what it's like when your in a locker room with a guy who has a donkey shlong, and your so intimidated by this monster you have to say something negative. Sorry my 'long post' put you in such a panic you had to give up your amenity for a false sense of security by speaking out of place..

[Scientia]

EDIT: please delete

[Scientia]

EDIT: Third time I try to post this reply, but I keep not seeing it. I must have fucked up something :S
EDIT2: I think I misused the quote function and it broke :x
EDIT3: fixed
EDIT4: Eh, as I suspected it got posted twice. How can I delete my previous duplicate post and keep this updated one?

Since I'll refer to previous points many times, I numbered your points for ease.

@Drich

and you are trying to minimize it. Evidence found in court determines the immediate state of a life. where it is incarcerated or not where or not it is imprisoned for life where or not a life is to be taken. in what field of science demands a life of the scientist if the scientist is wrong? Yes some scientist pay with their lives testing false or wrong hypothesis, but I am talking millions of lives each and every day are determined by a system of eyewitness evidence you are trying to desperately trivialize and dismiss.

Eye witness testimony takes on far greater weight than you are prepared to acknowledge. Our whole society is based what collaborative eye witnesses agree upon. here with Christianity the testimony is not the only thing being presented either.the testimony is simply a personal guarantee that what one experienced is also waiting for you.

1) Evidence found/presented in court and how "justice" is administered in general is just one of the lesser evil. In an uthopic society, you wouldn't need laws and you wouldn't need men-judges. However we all know it doesn't work like that, and so we have to create a system that, despite not being perfect, is somewhat functional and helps to regulate society. Some have subjectively "better" laws/regulations than others and some are questionable.

To undermine the testimony of the eye witness is to undermine the whole criminal justice system.

2) Pretty much. I understand the rules by which society plays, but I still don't see it as the perfect system and many things are left to the subjectivity of the judge. So you are correct in the sense that I do not agree with the whole criminal justice system and that I question it. I don't believe it is right to leave a man's fate in the hands of someone's word. At the same time I can't come up with a better solution at the moment to regulate society, and so I accept it as a compromise for the time being and try to play by the rules. Again, it's one of the lesser evils, otherwise you'd have rampaging savages. 

I see that you tried to go further but you statement if evidence that you can not. It seems you do not even understand how the criminal justice system work let alone science. neither work on the idea of unequivocal proof. Science is all about the best peer review theory and criminal justice is looking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 2000 years of people claiming basically the same thing is a little beyond a reasonable doubt.

3) This made me giggle. Science is proven right every single day, justice is not. When something in science doesn't work, it gets revisited and eventually mistakes fixed. 

Scientific results are subjected to the best peer review but, even when wholly accepted by the scientific community, it can happen that a mistake was made along the way and no one noticed. However, eventually that mistake gets out in the open because math, physics and chemistry do not have time. It will happen that theories once deemed correct are revisited, reshaped, modified and corrected once new and more reliable information comes in. That's how it works and it works. It's an attempt to understand how this world works and it functions.

Now let's switch to the justice system. If you find out that the culprit of a crime commited in the 800's was X and not Y, how do you correct it? You can't and that is why this system is flawed. Do we have better alternatives at the present moment? I don't, you don't (I assume) and so we compromise. 

Science is an understanding of the current world that is continuously evolving and adapting as new information completes the picture. The acceptance of scientific results as a consequence of peer review does not constitute a truth per se until it is proven again and again that it works. It's just a first step in the supposedly right direction, a temporary truth. If the scientific community accepts something as truth, but that something doesn't work in the end, then it stops being accepted as truth, it is revised and fixed. 

If if and buts where candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas!!! The judge here is you sport. are you corrupt? are you so in the bag for science you mind will not allow you to judge a eye witness fairly? if so the no evidence scientific or not will allow you to open your mind to God. Here is a test. If you are looking for evidence for God truly, then please describe what would be enough for you. evidence in what form? what would you have to do or see to be satisfied?

4) Oh I like tests. Here's what I require to believe in God: 

I'd like him to show me that he's indeed the omnipotent creator of everything by doing it in front of me. Specifically I'd require him to manipulate matter at the atomic level and transform it by snapping his fingers; for example, displace electrons between oxygen and nytrogen in the air, emit some radiation and turn it into lead or gold or water or whatever. 

I'm asking to see something that no one can currently do but that isn't physically impossible. Basically play by his own rules. If he created everything, if he was the source of the big bang, then it shouldn't be so difficult to replicate a small scale big bang experiment. It shouldn't be so fantasy to transform matter into energy and viceversa. I mean, we can already do that to a certain extent, roughly, but we don't have that much precision. If he can show me that he can manipulate matter at will, manually pick electrons and protons and displace them between atoms, basically if he can show me that he's a "reality surgeon", that he's able to create other realities and also destroy them, then I will acknowledge that he's god. If he can show me that he can transform air into organic matter, make it live and die in front of me, and turn it into a stone, I'll believe he's god. If he can show me that he cuts his own arm or takes out his own heart, lets me touch it and feel it pumping, and then place everything back in his body, I'll believe him. Or well, if anything, I'll at least acknowledge the existence of such a powerful being that I would consider God. It's the same as asking your fellow scientist to replicate the results of his research. Also, he supposedly did something similar already with one of his disciples through the stigmata of Christ but I wasn't there at the time. Can't he do it once more for me?

Perhaps in the future, men will be able to gain such knowledge that allows them to do these feats, and perhaps even a time traveler from the future with such powers could convince me that he's a god. In that case, kudos to him for conning me. I wouldn't be ashamed to have believed in such thing. Even in that case I'll acknowledge them being superior beings on par with any god described in textbooks.

You said he will move mountains of doubt for me. I'm not asking to see mountains moving (that happens anyways naturally, so it's not a big deal), I'm just asking him to introduce himself "Hello, I am God", and replicate a small scale version of his experiment (create the universe and life) deliberately in front of me. Do you think he could do that?

Because well, I refuse to accept as my superior someone who is exactly like me and can do the same things as me but can't be seen, heard, touched or felt in any way and DEMANDS me to serve him. It simply defies my logic, philosophy of life, pride, everything. 

the only truth in science is truth is whatever the collective says it is. In court I would like to say we get it right the vast majority of the time. How can I say this? because I've spent time in jail and been to a prison for a 'visit.' Neither place is filled with nice people. or people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, everyone there will get over on you if they can!

So like it or not it seem that the criminal justice systems and it's burden of proof works far better than you are willing to admit.

5) This was already addressed before at point 3). Just a quick re-answer in case you missed it: you are incorrect. Truth in science is factually, really accepted as truth only afterwards. Even if the scientific community accepts something as truth, that isn't really true until it works again and again and again and again always. And if it stops working at any point, that truth is questioned and revisited and studied again until the mistake is found. Science is evolving and adapting as new knowledge enters the picture. 


You may have spent time in jail, but it's clear to me you haven't spent enough time in a lab, where experiments seldom work as you had planned.

that's not true, lest you are defining objectivity differently.

So define objectivity.

6) Do you really want to push this button ? Not a problem for me, but we'll have to open a new thread for it or it'll derail this one.

No, the seven creation thing simply requalifies creation as a viable non conflicting addition to anything evolution demands. It simply allows believers to hold on to their faith without have to sacrifice any scientific belief that maybe required of them.

7) Basically speculation.

Dude, how big is a mustard seed? aagain it seems as if you missed it or ignored what I said, it is the faith required to simply follow the directions Christ left in an effort to find God. you basically have to be willing to Ask Seek and knock God's way and not your own.

8) Around 1 mm3, circa 2 mg. By putting it into Einstein's equation E = mc2, we get E = (2*10^-6 Kg)*(3*10^9 m/s)^2 which gives us E = 1.8*10^25 J
Translating this number in tangible terms, 1 mustard seed meant in terms of energy is equal to the energy release from the explosion of 50 ton of TNT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIQr62lZbsM , which is quite a considerable amount in my book

Again found in luke 11 this time I will post it:
5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”

The Holy Spirit is God... What more proof of God does one need than to be sat in front of God? to as God a question and receive an answer to pray and effect change to have that "capacity switch" turn on. To see and hear things you could not before to have access to Him and his wisdom. then to put it all to use and it all turn out to work and be true.

9) That's statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_statistics , probability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling . It was a thing 3000 years before the bible was even written. Throw the dice 100 times, statistically you'll get a 6 at some point. How is that the proof that the holy spirit is god or that any of them exists at all? 

Also in life, if you want something badly, you'll do everything to get that something and eventually you get it. That's how you get stuff done in real life. If I want to go somewhere, I'll stress my boss until she's convinced to send me there. If I want to publish a paper in a renown journal, I'll accept all the crap suggestions the editor requires of me until I publish it. If you want to get a job so bad, you'll find it. I obtained pretty much everything I reasonably wanted in life, and it wasn't because of miracles or because some entity helped me. I insisted and insisted and the circumstances were favourable enough until it statistically became a thing. With each attempt I just pushed the odds. That's called determination, perseverance and well, "luck". In all of this I never asked god anything. I did it on my own and I was lucky enough.

It was a dream! Which is consistant with how the NT says God will communicate with us in the last days. (Dreams and visions.) This was a dream because I went to bed and woke up in the same bed! 

Is your question how do I know my dream actually depicts truth? Because of hell. I knew nothing of it besides what movies and TV told us about it most of which parallels the works of Dante' which is a multi layer place where there is a big red satan with a pitch fork and rules hell and torments people in hell. which is nothing like the bible describes or what I felt and witnessed. My dream of hell was biblically accurate before I knew what the bible had to say about hell.

10) Just to confirm: does this "hellfire" refer to the feeling of not being loved or disregarded/ignored/abandoned by god? I've always been curious about this because nuns at school depicted it similarly to Dante's inferno which was scary for a kid, but when you ask actual christians it's like this hell is something more generic and vague, sometimes only an allegoric figure and doesn't refer to actual eternal physical pain and discomfort in the afterlife. Thanks

I did not say you had to stop understanding God. I said if you live you whole life learning as much as you could everyday, you would run out of life before you ran out of God to understand. So for you to presume one could have all the answers is foolish. that said, when one is bonded with the Holy SPirit While we may not have the answers, He does. That is why I am here is to learn more as you all ask questions I would never think to ask in turn I learn more about God. Again the whole assimilation of evolution into creation was all God based on a series of questions one of you asked. I was personally happy with I can see how both ways worked and was happy to say IDK and then someone asked well how would both ways work and it was like i was up loaded everything I needed to know, first shot. I just started writing and had to put the paragraphs in order as I was getting them from every which direction.

11) I said before that I don't really have a reason to live, but I survive and try to distract myself with funny and entertaining activities. That lack of reason to live stems exactly from a limitation in my lifespan that doesn't let me learn all the discernible. If I were immortal, I would want to learn everything. Does this mean that I stopped learning? No, not at all. Even before dying I'll try to learn all I can that I can reasonably digest and assimilate. I thirst for knowledge and so far I navigated this world through the sensory organs of this body I inhabit and through the means of science I was provided at this time in history. I learnt a lot and it's still nothing in the big picture, but this doesn't stop me from asking questions. I'd rather die with unanswered questions than stop questioning and accept suppositions and vague thinking (which religion is, in my eyes). 

For instance, how do you know that the holy spirit knows everything? And who the hell is this holy spirit in the first place (no offense)? I'll most likely die questioning everything, but to me it's better than accepting potentially false truths. And just to clear up potential misunderstandings: if this physical perceived reality ended up being fake, then I wouldn't feel that bad about it because that's all I was given, all I could base my thinking on. But if I am given the means to properly learn and I decide to stop questioning and blindly accept questionable truths, then I'll feel immensely devastated if those accepted truths turn out to be bogus.

Just think, how would you feel if tomorrow you discovered that the hobo who gave you that revelation was a renown con artist that conned many people and ruined someone's life and you just happened to be the statistically "blessed" one? How would you feel if tomorrow you found out that all your success in life was staged and you were the protagonist of a 3rd pov movie (like "the Truman show") and you had just convinced yourself of things? Quite the "what if" scenario, but for someone who questions everything, that is included in the package.

You see, the thing is, if such thing were revealed to me, I would think nothing. I would be ready to accept that as reality as I've been questioning everything since forever, it wouldn't really be a trauma or a big surprise. It'd actually be interesting and enlightening. Don't you feel like you are risking getting destroyed by it by believing something that is potentially false? Or do you think that you've already undergone so much shit that this wouldn't bother you so much anyways (or would perhaps be a relief if anything)?

what is the scientific method. Experimentation and duplication of the results. Meaning we would have to be able to plug in a certain set of parameters and that would demand God kick out a specific response. basically having God on demand. IE I rub a lamp 3 times and a god pops out and he grants me wishes for the good deeds I do. Or if I pray xyz God will give me 123. When in fact In the statement I am the alpha and omega the beginning and the end demands God's character be his own, as such he demanded we approached with A/S/K not the scientific method. If we can obtain God through our method then we are the begnning and end and his word means very little. So when I say you hide and look for God the one place he can never be found.. you literally are looking for Godin the place where if he was found you would have control over him!

12) An invisible and untangible individual DEMANDS me to follow him. Who's this guy to make such DEMANDS? "Show your face, if you dare. Identify yourself, if you exist as you claim!". Are we playing hide and seek? He demands me to follow him blindly, then I demand him to show himself up, that's fair. He started it. 

because he is superior in every way. because we are slaves petitioning to become sons. because we can not take anything God does not give freely.

13) An answer not backed up by tangible evidence. Refer to point 4). Otherwise, in which way is he superior to us? What do we mean by superior?

Hell no. once you receive the Spirit you learn fast Everything has a cost. the more 'god does' the more inept you become, the dependant you are. Granted I am as far into life as I want to be and be this dependant o anyone or thing. I owe so much to God I already feel I could never pay him back and I feel the debt compounds daily, so no I would not want anything more than what it takes to keep all my plates spinning. To closer you are to God the less you ask for in prayer. I even hesitate to ask for others outside of general stuff.

14) So you are telling me that the more independent you are, the furthest you are from God? Then I'm just getting further and further from him, if he existed . My whole life I strived to become independent, strong, self-sufficient, to never need anyone's help and to always fare well on my own. If that's it, then no wonder he never showed up .

Until he begins to work in your life if you let him. if you do then you will quickly come to understand there is nothing you can do to support where he takes you, and that all you are is not your own and you are a steward of this life.

15) Basically I have to turn off my brain and go on auto-pilot? Is this what you mean? Because that's the only circumstance I can picture, which makes me question it even more so.

good thing you are not god.

16) 

again why is death a bad thing? why is a mistake a bad non godly gift?

17) Conversely, why is life a good thing? Why is a correct move/choice a godly gift? If it's all so neutral and irrelevant, if everything is god's gift, then indeed this god is nihilistic (and in that case I wouldn't have any issue to accept an uncaring, indifferent and neutral godlike entity. It's pretty much how I see science).

I was literally outside watching myself as this all happened. I saw components in my mind and I quickly drew out their electrical symbol on the page in relation to one another and then with a ruler connected all the lines with different color pens representing various voltage changes. again something these guys could not do in 6 months of collaboration. It is hard to explain this stuff did not orginate with me it was like it was beamed in and I did everything I could to keep up with the pictures.. I was 100% drawing watchingmy self draw to make sure I did not make any mistakes.

Again when it is you, you know where your limitations are and you know what is not you yet it pours in at your limitations. You know when you are just able to figure stuff out, it's another to pull specs and electrical components out of a 3000 page catalog and put them together in such away on a weekend to work without having the facilities to test. again I tested everything for the first time that monday morning early in front of everyone. I had one chaperone who literally watch me and one of my guys put all of this together in a weekend and then off to the factory to proove it all worked! Then following few day optimized and went from 4 hour run time to just under 12. This sold 4 test units which I went to NYC to install personally it took a week and 1/2 then they ran 2 years and 25 more were bought at which point I was made an offer I could not refuse (in a good way) after that I broke ties and went a new direction. which I am now selling a third (non patented)/too similar to what already exists.. I took a base model industry standard truck and 'optimized' the commercial delivery capabilities and now sell them as a manufacturer/commercial and retail car truck dealer.

Again, the complexity of all of these working parts is well beyond anything I can do myself. What's more no one who works for me is a specialist in anything they do. I simply taught everyone their little part or got someone who could. All my people are second chance people most struggled with diplomas all have criminal records. Again, one or two things go right yes quicidence. but for things to go right in realistically 4 different businesses under two roofs you need a team of highly trained and qualified professionals or you Need God pulling the strings. Maximising profitability and minimizing loss protecting us from 1,000,000 pit falls everyday. We get what we need exactly when we need it everyday. we don't run on huge surpluses we have just enough, and when we need more we get more and when things fall off we us up what we saved. It's like manna from heaven we get just enough to take care of what we need to daily. This to me is great. most people can't operate like this let alone expand. again we have been serving this way almost 20 years now and lord willing I can finish out doing this as it allows me time to work with you all.

18) What you describe sounds like inductive reasoning and, more specifically, like intuition. Why does it resonate with me? Because I'm an intuitive thinker. Reaching the solution of a problem with a step by step procedure was never appealing to me. It sounded too mechanical and uninteresting and boring.

I always found funny and entertaining to figure out the solution of a problem without even writing it down or following the proper procedure. It was just like seeing through it and skipping steps. Or there would be times when I read a text and didn't understand it. Then I would just distract myself, get back to it at a later time and in the meanwhile my brain had subconsciously digested the information. The second time I picked it up it was all clear as if the solution dawned upon me. I've been relying on my intuition since when I was a kid. I could sometimes appear as "lacking" when confronted with algebra (matrices ecc) or immediate deductive reasoning, where most operations were fixed and followed specific rules and paths with not many degrees of freedom, but I was just brilliant in calculus like analysing a mathematical function or finding the end result of an infinite series or integer. I didn't even need to write it down, I could just read it, see patterns, connect the points and narrow down the solution with few inductive moves. Most of my answers sounded like guesses, but I wasn't really guessing.

But this isn't black magic. The feeling of "Ah damn, I can't understand this for shit" followed by "Ah fuck, it was so clear and simple all this time, why do I realize this only now?" is just a process regulated by time. The subconscious analyses what the conscious apprised during the day, digests it, and later on this information is regurgitated. 

Just like there are very intuitive people that may be shit at basic operation but can see right through a target, there are immensely powerful deductive machines. People who have such concentration and discipline of mind that their brain is like a computer processor; these people don't even need to figure out the solution inductively via intuition and may as well have 0 intuition or "gut feeling", but they got so much brainpower that they just deductively process the information with such speed that they can give you the result in a short time (eg those people who can multiply huge numbers in their head like they were living calculators).

A computer is a strictly deductively reasoning machine. You give it an input, it builds up a procedure which is based on the input and it spits a result. However, no matter how powerful a machine can be, it has no intuition. This is why you, as human, are superior to machines. You can skip steps, you can see ahead where the computer can't reach even after 1 million steps. This is why even the most powerful chess machine at the time, deep blue, lost against chess master Kasparov (2:4).

Do not underestimate your brain. Give yourself the merits you deserve. From an intuitive thinker to another. If life for deductive people is a straight constant line, life for an intuitive thinker is like an exponential curve. It starts slowly (even slower than the straight line) and then suddenly shots to the sky. That's how it feels most of the time.

in this case her suffering wasn't for her it was for you. it was for you to test your house of faith you built on the sand to see if it would stand. it was for you to call out to your idea of God and see if he were real enough to help your aunt. It turns out he wasn't and you learned that if you continued to follow your path, believing in your false (built on sand) version of faith and God it would have cost you hell. Now in part to her suffering you know your idea of God is wrong in part you thought God was all merciful your god was all kind your false god was all caring, sounds good, but today you found out the God of the bible can be a little dickish, when it comes to your understanding of compassion and suffering. Now you have found some truth you can begin to sink a foundation, so if you build your nex house of faith you know not to look for God to provide you with the easy life you want for yourself or others. 

19) Oh sir, please do not misunderstand. It is not out of fear for hell that I was trying to "correct" my "lack of faith". If it was out of fear, then I wouldn't have dissed god or toyed with Satan just to make it pop out; I would have played it safe. It was because of my thirst for knowledge. I would have agreed to keep mr Satan company in hell in exchange for the truth.

It is not that I thought god was all nice and merciful, I was TOLD and TAUGHT that by nuns, priests or those hypocritical believers. If their word matters nothing and they were more clueless than me, then it means that there is a huge fog of misinformation surrounding this religion (or any religion). In this sense I am grateful to you that you clarify these things to me, even though I still remain unconvinced (as pointed before). But at least I can better tolerate the train of thought of "true" christians, probably... to a certain extent....

Most of my conversations with self-claimed christians would quickly escalate and end as soon as I questioned and provided a few arguments like I did with you, therefore leaving me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

So at the very least I thank you for answering and holding up to this conversation nicely. As you can see, bad teachers are a thing.

It does. but stories like this are dismissed all the time. they assign a scientific term to the guy and assume God can not work through that term. Or like you they blame the schools for leaving a smart person behind. or they say he was a late bloomer or he is a liar or it is all just good luck. I have heard it all, but the truth is I don't play the lottery any more (Unless it's 1/2 a billion or more) as I far rather see how God full fills the second half of his promise to me.

what I am telling you is that they have investigated this over and over and found a word or a series of scientific words to explain us and again wrongfully assume God can not work through these terms. like high functioning autism or asperger's or misdiagnosised as a child or any number of other things. anything but God. look I know me I know my limts and still struggle with them daily. Here's the proof in it all. I am not a one off. God is not holding me in any special regard. What he has done for me he has promised for the rest of you a-holes.

All one need do is A/S/K on his terms and not your own

20) But that's the point! If it can be already easily explained with science, and so far science worked pretty nicely, why must we involve third parties? If it's all man made and everything can be easily reconducted simply to man, why must we include additional mystical characters that have no more power than man has already shown?

You said that you've heard it already several times, that there is a scientific term for everything. My question is: why it MUST be the act of a godlike entity and not just that? Just like you ask "why it can't be god?" I ask you "Why it can't be just science?". 

For the latter we at least have some semi-decent degree of proof; there are several studies on the brain and how it functions but guess what, the only discipline that tries to delve more intimately in the thought process without bringing in too many sciency things, namely psychology, is not even considered hard science but more like pseudoscience. Basically even among science disciplines there is a black sheep, a section that isn't bulletproof and still questionable but at least it's something. It's still more reasonable and acceptable. But can you say the same for christianity or any other religion for that matter? Let's say, from a statistical point of view, from a pretty probabilistic approach, what is it more likely to be, provided the information we have at hand? 

Again, I think the main difference between us boils down to what we believe to be more probable. For me it's one thing, for you it's the other. I would say the odds favor me, but I remain open to the possibility of being wrong. What I wonder is: why is it not the same for you? 

Again because of my current station in life kinda invalidates your assessment of personal limitations. I have always been willing to do anything, but my situation limited me on when and where. it was not till God came into my life allowed me to follow whatever path he had for me.

Example pre gad highest paying job 4.25 per hour cleaning up shops after mechanics, at a dealer ship. other wise day laborer picked oranges did duct work in an attic works at paint and body sanding panels (could not do that right lasted 2 weeks) workat at tire store organizing tire dumpster. After God:94ish got job in refrigeration business (no experience what so ever) in one year went from min wage to 10.00 per hour, second year moved to flate rate made 40K 3 year was hired on by competitor for 28.00 an hour lasted a year went into business my self the first time with a partner failed. after 9 months. went back to first refrigeration job under condition was given my own service truck and route. worked there in that spot till 2001 about 4 years made between 75 and 90K paid off my first company debt bought my first home and a new truck dirt bake and jet ski, was all mortgaged up then was told the owners son wanted my job. We where the same age and he figured if I could do it... So I packed it all up and went back to competitor I worked for before and he was also quitting said he was opening his own company, he said work for me for 2 years and I will make you a 50% partner. I did two years came and went he gave us a two paid vacation in some ski resort and then disappeared for a whole month. no pay no invoices nothing going out worked till the credit cards stopped, then he came back next day would not give me any clue as to what happened then a month later did it again for two weeks.. Was approached by the man who put me in business for myself and the rest is history.

Again my limits are not my own if they were I would not have taken the opportunities when presented.

21) I don't know, this section sounds as if you somehow agree with what I wrote before about limitations. In this paragraph you seem aware you don't have any intrinsic limitations. Of course life can present all kind of restrictions (eg abusive parents, nasty bosses, nasty people in general who try to block and hinder you, or life circumstances where you are physically blocked), but deep inside you don't really have any instrinsic limitations. Given enough freedom, you can unleash your potential. That's what I meant.

Again, This is my telling, doubting thomas need and got to put his hands in the wounds of Christ. That's the whole point to my telling of my story is to relay to you that God is willing to do the same type of thing for me as he is willing to do for you. Now Imagine how much doubt I have after living though all of that. which is why it is Said He is willing to cast a mountain of doubt into the ocean if you can simply generate a mustardseeds worth of faith. again we expend more faith in global warming than what is needed for God to work a life as he has mine.

22) Refer to 4)

If you read the OP of that story I make the point you just made in that it is not about where the angel came from as it is more about the origins of the message and of they ring true or not. You are focused on the material man to determine authenticity when in truth a messenger is nothing without the message. let's say you met the angel that told marry she was going to have Jesus.. real deal guy. for you there is no doubt who this fella is, but he has nothing to say to you. now let put you in front of your computer at home in your current situation bang out doubt insulsts and the like.. then you come across one of GC posts that while you dismiss cuts you to your quick, you know what is being said may be a generic quip for GC but speaks to you directly to the point you almost feel bad or a conviction as if God were indeed calling you. I ask you now who is the angel who is the messenger God sent? The guy who spoke to marry or the guy who deep down has pierced your heart in some way?

At the time my idea of angels were not dirty homeless black men. but the message rang 100% true, the fact I spoke to in in thought shook me to no end, the fact he recited special prayers I prayed in secrete shook me to my core, the very wrds I used to pray for me and another person almost had me stop driving. this man not only pierced my heart with out a word of who I was or what I was about He knew me eve if I could not fully recognise him today 

23) Lol, was this really what it looked like with GC post? Then I'll correct your misunderstanding: GC was the easiest post to dismiss because it dismissed itself on its own by saying "I won't reply back". In spite of this, I still played by his rules because I like games and I don't mind overkill, and so I replied to his weak points, to which I naturally received no answer. More than "pierced my heart" it never hit the target to begin with. It just reminded me of one of psychforums user, Rob K, who used to drop random non-sensical and disconnected replies in every thread to later edit his posts with a dot ".". (P.S. I didn't remember the guy's nick so I went back to that forum and re-read some of my ancient posts from 7y ago and I was delighted in seeing that my thought process has been consistent throughout these years after the realization I had at 21. I'd say that was the most important period of my life: when I realized that nothing matters).

did you miss the bit about being consumed by Hell fire? did you miss the part where it illicites the same response as if being burned? that eventually it consumes the soul or at least the part that holds together out sanity?

24) Reconnecting to point 10), so there is some sort of physical pain/discomfort associated with this hellfire? Or it's just what you personally felt at the realization that he ignored/didn't love you? I mean, it doesn't sound such a big deal for an intangible, invisible individual to not love you :/

the loss of God love only begets a deep regret. it is not the sum total of the hell experience.

25) Didn't get it.

till your eye glasses broke.. 

26) Ahah, it reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgjahj-3qg

more or less. in those days inorder to marry in or become a member of the famly you wrkes first as a slave. same kinda of thing here. We are saved from sin which makes us members or citizens f heaven, but the great reward comes if you serve and become a son of God.

27) Then I refuse to serve someone who doesn't even bother to show up after "demanding".

So here is exactly what I meant about faith in science and how it takes less faith for belief in God.,, Now to you since 2018 the hole narritive has taken a sharp change in that now there was never a hole. when in 85 when the were selling the taxes that would save us there was a definate hole.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...eclining1/

28) I wasn't even born in '85, but it's not like the understanding of the average citizen about these thematics has improved much. I said it before, I chose chemistry as my discipline because it's the scientific subject that most closely helps you understand reality at its very basic level. Chemists are the bastards behind the scenes that help big companies put leverage on natural phenomenons to gain some (economical) advantage. I'll reveal you some "secret" about the industry of electric cars or hydrogen cars: there is no such thing as "clean" energy as they advertise it. It is true that electric cars do not pollute, but where do you think you get electricity? Yes, you burn coal. You just displaced the polluting source. It is true that burning hydrogen only produces water and so it is safe. But how do you get hydrogen? You burn methane. You just moved the polluting source out of your customer's eyes. 

One of my professors even boasted about his success because he defended in a court trial a nasty factory that was polluting a river, and he won because he made some leverage on the weak points of the accuse. He knew his stuff. When you have to deal with this kind of people, all the nice and ideal world they advertise on TV just disappears. But I am grateful to these nasty individuals, because in the attempt to "form" us they also teach us how it really functions out there. Just like global warming was always a thing but it was overexagerated here and there for some profit. 

I don't know in which country you live, but here they banished gasoline containing lead compounds and the reason given was "because lead is toxic". Do you want to know which was the real reason? "It was too expensive to maintain, it's easier the other way". But when you have to take out something from the market, you need a strong reason, a strong driving force and so you embellish the reason to make the transition easier and more painless. The industry, first and foremost, cares about the profit. No one gives a shit about people safety.

If there is a thing I learnt, is that there is always an equilibrium. If something is too good to be true, then it's most likely that. But to discover such things, I think you need to be inside "it" or have someone who is together with the nasties.

then you would be most likely responsible to see the crack head die inside of a week of a overdose.

29) Nope. Everyone is responsible for his own demise. It may be a "strong" way to put it, but "the weak deserves to die so the strong may flourish" or "the weak deserve their fate" or any variation of this phrase. And I will accept it if, one day, I'll take the fall because I wasn't fit enough. That's how it should be.

the law, if you are not save and whether or not you have accepted the atonement offered.

30) What does the atonement consist in? For example, you said that 

tell that to the illiterate who just magical began to pick it up.. As it says in scripture you do not need a teacher as the very one (the holy Spirit) who wrote the scriptures also instructs you. all you need is the bible
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

You don't need commentary. God will give you what you can handle as you read it. Meaning a cursory read through will most likely draw out major contrasts between your version of God and the God of the bible/you will want to point out contradictions as you see them. This is seeking God. take those contradictions to me or one like me and pray "dear god help me figure out the truth amen" till you find something that jives.

31) But I had already taken that route way back then, when I could have been the most inclined to buy in that story. I even went to one of my professor's house twice a week because I wanted him to properly teach me christianity, not like those lazy guys at the afterschool, and he was very moderate and decent in his teachings without overdoing it. But the more he taught me, the less I was inclined to buy it. Then I tried reading it on my own and I was still unconvinced. It just looked like "administer good sense" sort of general advice. Afterwards I stepped up my game and I went ahead with my homemade summoning rituals (lol), then tried other ways but in the end nothing happened (and it's not really surprising me now).

Also, I clicked on that link you provided but it just narrates the story of Jesus. I already know that. I was taught that in school, then I saw some documentary about it, there were movies about it, parodies about it. I think I assimilated that story in all kind of variations and what's written in that website isn't any different from what I already know. And it remained a story. The same story I remembered. Did I overlook something important?

EXTRA question:

Since I think you can provide me a clarification like you did before, I have some questions that were always answered vaguely:
1) Why God put an apple tree in the Eden in the first place? Like ok, you created Adam and Eve and put them in Eden and you tell them they can do whatever they want but they have to stay away from the apple tree. Why not put some fence around it if it was so precious? Why show them the apple tree at all? Also, apple is one of the most boring fruits, they probably wouldn't have even considered it at all if God didn't tell them about it. It's like asking a kid "don't press this giant red button". 

Then you said that God gives each according to their ability: didn't he foresee that they would have been tempted by his prohibition? It's like he got what he asked for. To me it looks like he just wanted to find an excuse to mess up with them.

2) What do Hell, Purgatory and Paradise represent exactly? If they are not the grotesque depictions of Dante, then what are they exactly? 
- You already mentioned that Hell is like not feeling loved by god but at the same time it burns (physical burn?)
- What is purgatory exactly then? Like, can you get out of hell and be promoted to purgatory, or once you get thrown there that's it? And if Purgatory is a place where to atone for the little sins you did, how do you atone exactly? Like, you just wait in a queue (like at the post office)? I always pictured purgatory as the post office queue.
- What is heaven? Dante's depiction was so boring that I think I would have gone insane there. Hell may have been grotesque and weird but at least it sounded more fun than post-office-purgatory or boring-ass heaven. And once you arrive there, are you met by this old dude and sit on a cloud sofa or what? Can you watch TV? Play games? Eat pizza? Eat your lover? A heaven without those is as appealing as hell.

3) Please watch this 7 min video and tell me what you think about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E15IC3YKv8g 
It is clearly meant to be an analogy to the christian god, but done in a somewhat provocative way. I think you can give me an honest opinion without feeling offended or attacked. Our conversation has been going on for a while, so I think we sorted that stuff out already 

[Nay_Sayer]

FSM bless your little heart.

---

Drippys wall of verbal diarrhea is so big I cannot quote it properly.  bless his little heart.

RAmen

I didn't mean to intimidate you to the point it provoked you respond non topically. You know what it's like when your in a locker room with a guy who has a donkey shlong, and your so intimidated by this monster you have to say something negative. Sorry my 'long post' put you in such a panic you had to give up your amenity for a false sense of security by speaking out of place..

What in the good lord FSM name are you rambling about? Does the medicine need upping again drippy?