On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[Peebothuhlu]

Because it is one of the two places a person will spend eternity, and only those who have sought and accepted the truth of salvation will escape the hell we were all born to. By the way I misquoted nothing. What you call real and what is real can very well be two different things, that being what you call real may not be, hell is real and if you continue on the path you have chosen you will unfortunately find what I've said to be the truth. I'm not going to argue over the same thing post after post, it's a useless exercise, you will either reject or accept the truth and then be judged by God upon your decision.

GC

 So... uhm.. more sophistry and assertions?

Uhm... no. WHat I call 'Real' is that which comports to the reality around me.

If something "... That being what you call real may not be... " is again just rolling rhetoric.

You say hell is 'Real'. For the mutually agreed upon definition of 'What is real' as in that which coimports to reality.

We're not arguing over anything.

You're making claims. I'm just asking for you to back them up.

if you want to back out instead? Fine.

So.. please show me/folks where hell is as per your innitial claim of hell being 'Real'.

Cheers.

[Drich]

I'd like to point something out. There are hundreds of millions, if not more, of people around the world who will Never, Ever discover Jesus or the Christian faith, and yet STILL be sentenced to eternal torment for not believing in something they've never even heard of according to Christians. WTF? HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

I got off the phone with a family friend yesterday and it turns out that she thinks Christianity (Heaven, Hell, Bible) is bullshit too. I brought this up and she actually AGREED with me.

What in the bible makes you think only Christians get to go to heaven? Aside from christianity I can count two unnamed forms of worship, a general deism, and millions of others who practice a religion polar opposite than christianity. Not to mention individuals who worship the majority of their lives the false gods of egypt

Most of you 'good people' have heard the verse that has Jesus say "no man enters heaven but by me/jesus" Meaning Jesus and Jesus alone decides who is and is not saved. which means the acts/traditional beliefs creeds ceremonies nor chants or declarations of religion/the church are not what puts us in heaven. Christ Himself said it is he and he alone that judges and decides who is and is not going to heaven via a final judgement.

Those of you who do not want the easy way to heave will indeed be judged by the law as God has put it on your heart. While Christianity is the easy way it can also be easy to think you are saved and be much worse off than someone that you describe.

Again it is all on Christ to make that final judgement. He will rightfully divide us into paper thin slices and discern every thought intention and deed and judge them by the personal exposure and understanding you have/or have the ability to understand.

Meaning if you know about Jesus and atonement then you are responsible for why you did or did not act on his offer. if you did not know of his offer then you are judged by what you do know and understand.

[The Grand Nudger]

Drich is gonna be pissed when he ends up a janitor in heaven and sees me partying my ass off with the boss.

[Fake Messiah]

Christians may claim that God’s love is available to everyone who inhabits this planet and God gives everyone the opportunity to experience eternal life in heaven.
This however is a completely false assumption as this promise of eternal life is totally conditional:

1. Belief that Jesus is the son of God is an absolute requirement.
 
2. The ability to hear or receive knowledge of this promise by God is itself conditional.

According to the Bible, salvation is completely dependent on whether you have been fortunate enough to actually hear about Jesus and have then believed in him as the son of God.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Matthew 28:19

Based on the requirement of belief in Jesus as the son of God (John 3:16) God’s love/ salvation has never been available to everyone as only a very small number of human beings living on the planet 2,000+ years ago would have had the opportunity to experience the life and ministry of Jesus. He reputedly preached only for between 1-3 years at most and only traveled to cities within 170 km of Jerusalem. There were at the time millions of people living on all the continents of the world including India, China, the Americas and the rest of Europe and Asia. There was no satellite television to carry the news and message to the ends of the earth as we have today. The plan failed miserably to achieve great success during or immediately following the alleged lifetime of Jesus.

Even today 70% of human beings have not been convinced.

If the promise of eternal life can only be obtained by hearing and accepting the Gospel then clearly God has missed reaching - the world - the vast majority of mankind from day one. We can also question the fairness and justice of such a plan. His love or plan of salvation has always been very selective, firstly, only for the Jewish nation and then only for those who have the opportunity to hear and hopefully believe the message of the gospel.

And also if you're a Christian you're not "safe" for different denomination have conditions for salvation. For many Christians, a pure life is required and salvation apparently can be lost if the rules of the church are disobeyed. A divorce, an abortion, sex outside marriage, failure to attend mass and other misdemeanors are generally counted as sins for Roman Catholics and must be confessed to, and absolved by, a priest. For others there is a requirement to be ‘born again,’ accepting that Jesus died for the sins of humankind. Another group requires the believers to ‘speak in tongues’ by being baptized with the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. Others require Baptism in water by total immersion for adults. Some Christian groups or sects require their members to be in ‘submission’ to the leadership or elders.

[GrandizerII]

Your error was in that "clearly is a sociopathic way of thinking, but it's the most logically consistent answer to the question" I grant that from an exlucive-ist perspective it would seem that way.

You could argue the sociopathic bit was just my opinion (and even say that it was rude of me to say that), but I have no idea how that bit is considered an error nevertheless. And if you're referring to the logically consistent bit, I'm still not sure where I went wrong (after reading your whole last post). Christians have been exclusivist more often than inclusivist AFAIK, and many many Christians have held to the interpretation I'm currently defending because books like Romans and John provide good evidence for such interpretation.

This is not to say that you can't find a verse anywhere in the Bible that supports inclusivism, but if we consider the New Testament overall, an exclusivist interpretation makes a lot more sense than an inclusivist one. With inclusivism, you pretty much have to make more assumptions that are not based in the Bible itself, but based in the modern notion of such things as fairness and justice.

If the only way to be saved from Hell is from hearing and knowing about Jesus then the simplest course would be just to not tell anyone and hope they're judged by being good.

Uh, I'm not sure how you reasoned that out. If the only way to be saved is to hear the Gospel to thereby accept the gift of salvation through faith, and especially because one cannot be saved by being good enough, then Christians should hope to preach the Gospel to every person the planet.

On the contrary, it is with inclusivism that you won't have to worry about preaching the Gospel to everyone, not exclusivism.

I was outlining why, from my inclucive-ist perspective it wasn't sociopathic, but it was promoting an easier way to salvation.

I agree that wouldn't be sociopathic, but the question is how supportable this is by passages in the Bible itself, especially the New Testament.

Where you have it wrong again is in Romans
If "Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin"
and 2 "no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law"
and 3 "Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law ... show the work of the Law written in their hearts"

We have Law working to point out our sinful natures. You don't need religion to tell you you're wicked or to be wicked. What Romans points out mainly is that it does take religion to show you that what you consider good, isn't good compared to God. I can be perfectly nice and friendly and charitable, but be doing it all for selfish reasons, therefore not objectively good. The law (on stones or in hearts) is a tool to point out our repeated willful disobedience to our Heavenly Father. You're absolutely correct in that we can do nothing of our own to be saved. That's why the source is independent of our actions. Jesus did die for all and it's by His power we are saved. You can stand before God's judgment, on your own or covered by Jesus' sacrifice.

So where was the wrong in my POV exactly? Don't you see that what you're saying here points to exclusivism as much as you think it does to inclusivism?

[donlor]

Another thing is that only a TRUE believer can possibly be saved, according to Xtianity, yet nobody has a choice over whether they believe or not, people just believe what they perceive to be the truth.

Here is one of the most astute Biblical questions to be asked. I do not see how any Biblisist can answer this question with a totally Scriptural absolutism. Yet, clarity is not withheld either. Scripture has such an amazing tendency to expand thoughts & limitations.  Also, some issues are left in the providence of God, which we are not privy to. As this issue is the heart of the lordship/salvation controversy - I would err, if it would be err at all, on the lordship side! The judgment seat is not a good time to find out if you deceived yourself. 
As for all who wine about those who have never heard the Gospel message - the Bible answers this most completely in Romans 1:18-23 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.”
What does this say - that it is God who will judge - God will do so to those who have never heard the Gospel message according to how they responded to what the physical creation itself personally testifies - is this an injustice?
Forget about your answers being biblical - can you give me any reasons why my contentions lack merit?

[The Grand Nudger]

-and if the physical creation itself testifies to them that there are forty gods and homosexuality is kosher...they then get a pass on affirming things that would send some poor christer to hell..yes?

Tough break for you guys. A bunch of sexually deviant pagans get to have all the fun -and- the punch and pie in the sky. You get the life of shame and misery, and most likely not the punch or the pie....lol. "Jesus" says he doesn't know a bunch of you guys.

[Godscreated]

Christians may claim that God’s love is available to everyone who inhabits this planet and God gives everyone the opportunity to experience eternal life in heaven.
This however is a completely false assumption as this promise of eternal life is totally conditional:

1. Belief that Jesus is the son of God is an absolute requirement.
 
2. The ability to hear or receive knowledge of this promise by God is itself conditional.

According to the Bible, salvation is completely dependent on whether you have been fortunate enough to actually hear about Jesus and have then believed in him as the son of God.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Matthew 28:19

Based on the requirement of belief in Jesus as the son of God (John 3:16) God’s love/ salvation has never been available to everyone as only a very small number of human beings living on the planet 2,000+ years ago would have had the opportunity to experience the life and ministry of Jesus. He reputedly preached only for between 1-3 years at most and only traveled to cities within 170 km of Jerusalem. There were at the time millions of people living on all the continents of the world including India, China, the Americas and the rest of Europe and Asia. There was no satellite television to carry the news and message to the ends of the earth as we have today. The plan failed miserably to achieve great success during or immediately following the alleged lifetime of Jesus.

Even today 70% of human beings have not been convinced.

If the promise of eternal life can only be obtained by hearing and accepting the Gospel then clearly God has missed reaching - the world - the vast majority of mankind from day one. We can also question the fairness and justice of such a plan. His love or plan of salvation has always been very selective, firstly, only for the Jewish nation and then only for those who have the opportunity to hear and hopefully believe the message of the gospel.

And also if you're a Christian you're not "safe" for different denomination have conditions for salvation. For many Christians, a pure life is required and salvation apparently can be lost if the rules of the church are disobeyed. A divorce, an abortion, sex outside marriage, failure to attend mass and other misdemeanors are generally counted as sins for Roman Catholics and must be confessed to, and absolved by, a priest. For others there is a requirement to be ‘born again,’ accepting that Jesus died for the sins of humankind. Another group requires the believers to ‘speak in tongues’ by being baptized with the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. Others require Baptism in water by total immersion for adults. Some Christian groups or sects require their members to be in ‘submission’ to the leadership or elders.

 Given that you are preaching this knowledge of salvation when you come before God without accepting Christ you will have no excuse, could be God will pull up this very post to condemn you.

GC

[Fake Messiah]

Given that you are preaching this knowledge of salvation when you come before God without accepting Christ you will have no excuse, could be God will pull up this very post to condemn you.

GC

You obviously never saw this video

[tackattack]

---

Your error was in that "clearly is a sociopathic way of thinking, but it's the most logically consistent answer to the question" I grant that from an exlucive-ist perspective it would seem that way.

You could argue the sociopathic bit was just my opinion (and even say that it was rude of me to say that), but I have no idea how that bit is considered an error nevertheless. And if you're referring to the logically consistent bit, I'm still not sure where I went wrong (after reading your whole last post). Christians have been exclusivist more often than inclusivist AFAIK, and many many Christians have held to the interpretation I'm currently defending because books like Romans and John provide good evidence for such interpretation.

This is not to say that you can't find a verse anywhere in the Bible that supports inclusivism, but if we consider the New Testament overall, an exclusivist interpretation makes a lot more sense than an inclusivist one. With inclusivism, you pretty much have to make more assumptions that are not based in the Bible itself, but based in the modern notion of such things as fairness and justice.

If the only way to be saved from Hell is from hearing and knowing about Jesus then the simplest course would be just to not tell anyone and hope they're judged by being good.

Uh, I'm not sure how you reasoned that out. If the only way to be saved is to hear the Gospel to thereby accept the gift of salvation through faith, and especially because one cannot be saved by being good enough, then Christians should hope to preach the Gospel to every person the planet.

On the contrary, it is with inclusivism that you won't have to worry about preaching the Gospel to everyone, not exclusivism.

I was outlining why, from my inclucive-ist perspective it wasn't sociopathic, but it was promoting an easier way to salvation.

I agree that wouldn't be sociopathic, but the question is how supportable this is by passages in the Bible itself, especially the New Testament.

Where you have it wrong again is in Romans
If "Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin"
and 2 "no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law"
and 3 "Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law ... show the work of the Law written in their hearts"

We have Law working to point out our sinful natures. You don't need religion to tell you you're wicked or to be wicked. What Romans points out mainly is that it does take religion to show you that what you consider good, isn't good compared to God. I can be perfectly nice and friendly and charitable, but be doing it all for selfish reasons, therefore not objectively good. The law (on stones or in hearts) is a tool to point out our repeated willful disobedience to our Heavenly Father. You're absolutely correct in that we can do nothing of our own to be saved. That's why the source is independent of our actions. Jesus did die for all and it's by His power we are saved. You can stand before God's judgment, on your own or covered by Jesus' sacrifice.

So where was the wrong in my POV exactly? Don't you see that what you're saying here points to exclusivism as much as you think it does to inclusivism?

---

If you would like to look at the New testament as a whole. You are ignoring almost every overarching theme of Jesus and His apostles seeking to redefine how the current regime used God's law to condemn their own people, and Christians sought to spread the message outside the devout, Sadducee, Pharisees and Levites. It was both to the common Jews, and then to the gentiles unto the ends of the world.

If you are defining exclucivist/inclucivist views in that only followers of Christ can get to Heaven, that is a different story. If you're defining exclucivist/inclucivist as that God seeks all to be reconciled to Heaven, and we're discussing salvation without hearing about the Bible that is what I'm talking about. If we're moving the goalposts a little by confusing definitions then let's just take a moment to be clear, but I'll address both definitions.


I'll be more specific with my highlights to express the inclucivist view I was talking about and if you still feel it is more exclucivist, please point out how.
"Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin"
"no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law"
"Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law ... show the work of the Law written in their hearts"

If we are moving the definitions to who gets to heaven. John 14:6 is a notoriously difficult verse for believers where Jesus says, "no one can come to the Father except through me”. A lot of exlucisivists assume this to mean "through faith in me". A lot of inclucivists claim no Faith is necessary because it is "through my saving work". To be clear on this definition I practice restrictivism (exclusivism) meaning that a positive response to general revelation is not enough to accept the gift of salvation from Christ in that one needs a conscious decision to acknowledge/accept Christ as your savior. However, Christ's sacrifice is powered by itself, and not our actions, so those unable to know or decide (mentally handicapped, babies, unreached aboriginals, etc.) do not have "the Law" and show the work written on their hearts.

In the case of adults who have not heard of Jesus (as is the case in the news recently), they may have good lives, laws and their own beliefs and Gods, but it is evidenced by that murder is a part of their society. Therefore, from my perspective and judginess, as we gain the ability to reason more of our sinful (topic of original sin) nature affects our decisions/society and can prevent us from being accepted by Heaven, because we chose our own path, not Jesus' or the one written on our heart. These usually reflect in the typical cardinal sin archetypes and are visible in almost every societal construct I can think of.

So to sum up quickly because this is far longer than I wanted.
You need to hear>accept Christ as your savior, or turn against your natural sinful nature instinctively (without knowing of Christ) to become saved.