On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[fredd bear]

For one, there is no other religion that claims God Himself came to us as a man, at least of which I'm aware.

But is it anything more than a claim?  I don't think so.

Second, everything about Christianity, when it isn't being interpreted through the carnal lenses of phonies, makes sense.

So now we're "phonies" because we think your religion is nonsense?  My, my -- aren't you the precious one.

I think it would be appropriate for you to lose your faith and join the rest of us "phonies" in the real world.  

 As far as I'm aware Christianity contains no original features 

 A few examples below. Found after a very brief search.

God as man:

Ancient Greek gods habitually took human form and lived among humans.--lest any Christian claim these are myths, I reply so is the Christian claim of Jesus as the son of God, to me and I think more than a few atheists.

Same goes for Hinduism; the God Krishna  often appeared  in human form. Perhaps the best known example can be found in the Baghavad
Gita .(The Song OF God) This is part of the Mahabharata, one of Hinduism's most revered .In the Gita , Krishna has a conversation a man called Arjuna, explaining the origin of suffering. The Gita is a sublimely  beautiful book, which answers one of the great questions men have asked for millennia: why do we suffer?. The explanation is simple and elegant, providing a rational answer where Christianity  cannot.

Virgin Birth:

" It is a fact that divine births were so commonly accepted among ancient people that whenever they hear of one who has greatly distinguish himself, they immediately classify such a person as having been born of a supernatural lineage. The learned Thomas Maurice in his book called Indian Antiquities, goes far as to state that “in every age and in almost every religion of the Asiatic world, there seems uniformly to have flourished an immemorial tradition that one god had from all eternity begotten another god”It is a fact that divine births were so commonly accepted among ancient people that whenever they hear of one who has greatly distinguish himself, they immediately classify such a person as having been born of a supernatural lineage. The learned Thomas Maurice in his book called Indian Antiquities, goes far as to state that “in every age and in almost every religion of the Asiatic world, there seems uniformly to have flourished an immemorial tradition that one god had from all eternity begotten another god”

https://www.nairaland.com/193520/there-m...gin-births

 The dying and resurrecting god has been part of fertility religions for millennia. And I think in South American civilisations, independently.

Son of God: Horus; son of the goddess, mother Isis  and  her brother the god Osiris.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Hello MilesAbbott81!

I must confess as to your claim that only Christianity has a diety becoming incarnate rather puzzling.

As others have pointed out/explained. Other dietys have certainly been ascribed as doing such. Then you have such 'Demigods' as Hercules.

I suppose the whole 'Diety actually incarnated totally in the physical' is the slight differance.

Of course, this leads into the rather complicated 'Tripartate' as you can't seem to have an incarnate diety be in two places at once.

So.... if the diety totally/completely incarnates on Earth.... Who's driving reality while said diety is 'Slumming it'?

Cheers.

[possibletarian]

And there's our problem Mike, you cannot in any reasonable terms discuss christianty without establishing the validity of it's authority first, otherwise what differs it from all other religions, creeds and beliefs that you don't accept ?

For one, there is no other religion that claims God Himself came to us as a man, at least of which I'm aware. Second, everything about Christianity, when it isn't being interpreted through the carnal lenses of phonies, makes sense. Everything about the world can be rationally reconciled with the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is why I was interested in discussing actual Christianity and not simply the existence of God, because the "philosophy" of Christianity makes the truth about God even more readily apparent.

You then go on to claim a special revelation about cancer cures, and claim a site (that you say ) is the only place (you are aware of)  that has true wisdom from god which of course was written by men, who you also claim to be liars, unless they agree with you, or you them.

It's not revelation, I merely said the Lord gave me to stumble across these treatments (or that is what I meant, anyway). The evidence is out there that water fasting can cure all kinds of diseases (including MS and type 1 diabetes). The problem is people put too much faith in men, and prefer simple and easy "fixes" like swallowing pills (and are loath to change their habits, particularly those related to diet). Dandelion root powder is new to the cancer scene, but there is research about that out there as well. The heat treatments (hyperthermia) are widely used in Germany and probably many other places. I'd recommend the film "Cancer Can Be Killed" as one example (just Google it). Doctors are much more interested in making money, so they insist on conventional treatments that rake it in.

Here's your challenge, try discussing the merits or truth of the christian faith without resorting to a godly authority, you can use the bible or any logical argument, but as soon as it requires any special revelation, or claim to be inspired by a god, then clearly you need proof that the author of that authority exists.

Well, what's written in the Bible can only be understood if God gives the understanding. Understanding it on your own would be like an ant attempting to learn astrophysics. That said, the messages in the Bible are clearly spelled out, but to take credit for the understanding absent God's grace would be disingenuous.

And while we've been through this before, I'll state it one final time: proof exists. You just don't consider it to be proof because you're far more interested in disproving God than in proving Him.

Lets put aside the 'uniqueness' of the claims of christianity, as has been shown by the posts of others here the details of christian mythology are mostly not unique at all, and most seem nothing more than re-hashing of earlier myths. In any case a unique claims bears no witness whatsoever to the truth of that claim, so I'm unsure of why christians bring it up anyway, especially as all religions have some aspect that's unique.

I'm not even sure what ''the philosophy of christianity' even means Mike, as I understand it you claim that people trying to understand god's ways are like an ant trying to understand astrophysics, but with special revelation from your god, he's given you extra wisdom or understanding, by all means start your own thread where you can share this wisdom with us.

I've bolded the following, because this seems to be something you cannot get past.

I'll state it one final time: proof exists. You just don't consider it to be proof because you're far more interested in [i]disproving God than in proving Him.[/i]

I and other atheists are not the slightest bit interested in 'disproving' what we have no reason to believe is true in the first place, I spend zero time disproving Thor, Zeus, The Yeti, Superwoman, Allah, I fully extend that lack of effort to Yahweh or Jesus, I also spend no time trying to prove the existence of Allah, Superman, Shiva , or the others as I'm certain if there were a supreme being, his/her/it's existence would not be in doubt at all. Clearly the job of proof is for those who make such claims.

If you want to claim such a being then you either have to settle for 'it's not my job to prove' which brings us back to putting your mythology along in the same bucket as all other religions, who also as strongly believe their faith is true.  If indeed you believe you can argue through the 'philosophy of christianity' (whatever that is) your god into being, then like I say, start a thread with that claim we look forward to it.

[fredd bear]

For one, there is no other religion that claims God Himself came to us as a man, at least of which I'm aware. Second, everything about Christianity, when it isn't being interpreted through the carnal lenses of phonies, makes sense. Everything about the world can be rationally reconciled with the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is why I was interested in discussing actual Christianity and not simply the existence of God, because the "philosophy" of Christianity makes the truth about God even more readily apparent.


It's not revelation, I merely said the Lord gave me to stumble across these treatments (or that is what I meant, anyway). The evidence is out there that water fasting can cure all kinds of diseases (including MS and type 1 diabetes). The problem is people put too much faith in men, and prefer simple and easy "fixes" like swallowing pills (and are loath to change their habits, particularly those related to diet). Dandelion root powder is new to the cancer scene, but there is research about that out there as well. The heat treatments (hyperthermia) are widely used in Germany and probably many other places. I'd recommend the film "Cancer Can Be Killed" as one example (just Google it). Doctors are much more interested in making money, so they insist on conventional treatments that rake it in.


Well, what's written in the Bible can only be understood if God gives the understanding. Understanding it on your own would be like an ant attempting to learn astrophysics. That said, the messages in the Bible are clearly spelled out, but to take credit for the understanding absent God's grace would be disingenuous.

And while we've been through this before, I'll state it one final time: proof exists. You just don't consider it to be proof because you're far more interested in disproving God than in proving Him.

Lets put aside the 'uniqueness' of the claims of christianity, as has been shown by the posts of others here the details of christian mythology are mostly not unique at all, and most seem nothing more than re-hashing of earlier myths. In any case a unique claims bears no witness whatsoever to the truth of that claim, so I'm unsure of why christians bring it up anyway, especially as all religions have some aspect that's unique.

I'm not even sure what ''the philosophy of christianity' even means Mike, as I understand it you claim that people trying to understand god's ways are like an ant trying to understand astrophysics, but with special revelation from your god, he's given you extra wisdom or understanding, by all means start your own thread where you can share this wisdom with us.

I've bolded the following, because this seems to be something you cannot get past.

I'll state it one final time: proof exists. You just don't consider it to be proof because you're far more interested in [i]disproving God than in proving Him.[/i]

I and other atheists are not the slightest bit interested in 'disproving' what we have no reason to believe is true in the first place, I spend zero time disproving Thor, Zeus, The Yeti, Superwoman, Allah, I fully extend that lack of effort to Yahweh or Jesus, I also spend no time trying to prove the existence of Allah, Superman, Shiva , or the others as I'm certain if there were a supreme being, his/her/it's existence would not be in doubt at all.  Clearly the job of proof is for those who make such claims.

If you want to claim such a being then you either have to settle for 'it's not my job to prove' which brings us back to putting your mythology along in the same bucket as all other religions, who also as strongly believe their faith is true.  If indeed you believe you can argue through the 'philosophy of christianity' (whatever that is) your god into being, then like I say, start a thread with that claim we look forward to it.

 @possibletarian

Unless you make a claim , such as "there is no god" or "I believe there is no god" There is no burden of proof. That honour belongs to the person claiming "I believe in god" or' there is a god"
 
You need prove exactly nothing. It's a common ploy of ignorant people to say something like 'OH yeah, well YOU prove I'm wrong"

The person claiming 'there IS proof" is incorrect. The claimant is either lying or is simply ignorant. Credible proof of the existence of God would change the world,.I'm confident I would have heard about it, but I haven't so there isn't.


Below for your info if you continue to engage with Christian apologists.---I have never yet seen one accept either sound logic or facts which contradict their  dogmatic beliefs. They can't afford to; admitting error could destroy their world view.


"The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi, shortened from Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position.


"When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.[1] This is also stated in Hitchens's razor. Carl Sagan proposed a related criterion, the Sagan standard, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".[2] "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_...hilosophy)

[MilesAbbott81]

Who knows, perhaps you're all right and I'm completely incorrect in my assertions. Maybe what I've pointed to as proof actually doesn't qualify as such, and there is no way to reason your way to the existence of God on the basis of it. Could be.

In any case, I have no desire to continue posting in this thread. I've provided the same resources that were made available to me to everyone here, so anyone reading this has the opportunity to come to their own conclusions.

[Abaddon_ire]

I suppose I have to wonder once again why you all bother having a "Christianity" section if you have no interest in discussing Christianity. If practically every argument you people engage in ends with "well why consider any of this without proof of God?" then there truly is no point in discussing any of this.

And there's our problem Mike, you cannot in any reasonable terms discuss christianty without establishing the validity of it's authority first, otherwise what differs it from all other religions, creeds and beliefs that you don't accept ?

You then go on to claim a special revelation about cancer cures, and claim a site (that you say ) is the only place (you are aware of)  that has true wisdom from god which of course was written by men, who you also claim to be liars, unless they agree with you, or you them.

Here's your challenge, try discussing the merits or truth of the christian faith without resorting to a godly authority, you can use the bible or any logical argument, but as soon as it requires any special revelation, or claim to be inspired by a god, then clearly you need proof that the author of that authority exists.

EDIT: I had a peek at your so called 'true wisdom' site, I have never seen such a mishmash of simple assertions, i can clearly see where you were indoctrinated from now, and i recommend everyone here has a look.

Well, I did have a look. Then a second. Then a third.

What I read was astonishing. Amazing, even.

Then I did some background checking and found confirmation of my initial reaction.

It is one of the biggest piles of unmitigated bullshit, delusional fantasy and outright lies ever assembled by a schizophrenic lunatic.

It's so out there that eventually, you can't help but start to laugh at the outrageous claims. I mean, having a house cat is idolatry? Really? And house pets in general are a huge government covert plot to turn us all on to bestiality? What the actual fuck?

I heartily recommend it to anyone needing jaw exercises, because your jaw will hit the deck so often, also because it becomes so side splittingly funny so quickly as you surf around it.

And what is Miles' opinion of this vast repository of absolute batshittery and wingnuttery? This...

"To be clear, practically everything I've written here I discovered for myself at this site. It's the only place I'm aware of that has true wisdom from God."

Holy shit!

---

Who knows, perhaps you're all right and I'm completely incorrect in my assertions. Maybe what I've pointed to as proof actually doesn't qualify as such, and there is no way to reason your way to the existence of God on the basis of it. Could be.

In any case, I have no desire to continue posting in this thread. I've provided the same resources that were made available to me to everyone here, so anyone reading this has the opportunity to come to their own conclusions.

Hi Miles.

I have read your sources. They are nukking futs.

Even other christians think they are nukking futs. All of them.

[Angrboda]

I'd recommend the film "Cancer Can Be Killed" as one example (just Google it).

I found myself in the weird part of Amazon a few months ago. As it turns out Amazon is a big fan of sketchy health documentaries. You can view dozens of documentaries free of charge with Amazon Prime that support anti-vaccine views, peddle unproven cancer therapies, and all other sorts of nonsense. Which brings me to a documentary called Cancer Can Be Killed. Cancer Can Be Killed was produced by Jeff Witzeman and released in the summer of 2017. Witzeman claims that his wife’s bladder cancer was cured using these all-natural treatments provided by a clinic in Germany. In its opening scene Witzeman tries to pull the audience in with:

"What if I told you that cancer can be killed naturally with no chemo, no radiation and no radical surgery in the form of organ removal? You’d probably say, yeah, that’s not real. So, I guess I’m gonna have to prove it you."

There’s no need for hypotheticals Mr. Witzeman, that’s not real. The “evidence” presented by Witzeman is always in the form of testimonials, testimonials make up at least 1/3rd of the film and are not a substitute for scientific evidence. The film goes exactly how you would expect; there is a laundry list of common alternative cancer treatment scams presented directly at the start. After presenting what in his mind is evidence, he then argues that the only reason the treatments presented aren’t standard is because the “medical system” prevents it somehow. Witzeman concludes the film by asking viewers to sign a petition to pass legislation that would force insurance companies to pay for these “natural” treatments.

The first thing you should know about the film is that none of the “treatments” showcased are new, and none of them have been proven effective. Many of the treatments showcased as effective not only have been proven be ineffective, they can be hazardous to your health. There are three “doctors” presented in the film, two of whom are not actually doctors, and all of whom have a history of slimy business practices, and their reasons for providing these alternative treatments are far from altruistic. But I guess I’ll have to prove it to you.

---

Cancer Can Be Killed peddles dangerous health advice from unethical and unqualified alternative medicine business entities. The treatments and theories showcased in the film aren’t new, and none of them have any evidence to support their efficacy. Witzeman accuses medical professionals of either being mindless drones that only do what they’re taught in medical school or actively working to suppress treatments that would save people’s lives, which is every bit wrong as it is insulting. Cancer Can Be Killed is an absolute dumpster fire, a Wal-Mart parking lot of films. If you’re going to watch Cancer Can Be Killed, not that I would recommend it, take the claims made in the film with a big grain of salt and an even bigger bottle of Smirnoff.

Bad Documentary Review: Cancer Can Be Killed

I guess it's true, "You are what you eat!"

[fredd bear]

Up to a year ago, I had a dear friend called Wayne.

Wayne watched a lot of 'fringe ' health documentaries online and visited a heap of sites, learning about wonderful products, including many about which he would end with the enthusiastic endorsement "-----AND, it cures cancer!"

He took a range of quack medicines, ate and drank some unusual things, as preventative measures. He refused to listen when I tried to tell him these (often expensive) things were bogus.

Because of these beliefs, Wayne was anti mainstream medicine, and rarely went to a doctor.

About a year ago he began complaining of feeling tired all the time. Took months to get Wayne to see a doctor.

He finally went to the doctor and had some blood test done. On the evening of having blood taken, his GP rang him, telling him to get to hospital, NOW! (I have never in my life had a GP ring me)

Wayne went to hospital where he was diagnosed with Leukemia. My dear friend died 8 days later.

I can't express my anger for and contempt of these ignorant and often dishonest con men/women, who sell snake oil. They are responsible for the deaths of naive and gullible people such as my friend.

My anger and contempt includes the ignorant fools who endorse such utter nonsense on internet forums ,including this one.. No, not you Jormungandr. (sorry, I don't know how to do an umlaut on my windows keyboard)

[The Grand Nudger]

 The dying and resurrecting god has been part of fertility religions for millennia. And I think in South American civilisations, independently.

-ish.  

Nanahautzin and Tecuciztecatl, sacrificial gods, threw themselves into a fire at Teotihuacan to forestall the end of the world and were made manifest again as the sun and moon, respectively.  This created a pillar of fire that burns from Mictlan to Toplan, which the fire-god Xiuhtecuhtli stokes every 52 years in the month of november...completing a cycle of the solar calendar.  Toxhiuhmolpilia.  The fire gods name translates to Tourquoise Lord, xiuhitl..the root, meant both turquoise and time.  

Quetzalcoatl is commonly mistaken for a dying and resurrecting god due to some pretty hilarious bullshitting on the part of spanish conquistadors and their translators, which made it's way into the florentine codex later in the century and spawned the myth of the natives expecting a returned god and mistaking Cortez for the same.  Meso-americans appear to have believed Quetzalcoatl to be an immortal dragon (THE wind dragon, no less).  Not some bilge rat prick fresh off the boat eyeballing chandeliers.

Pre-columbian myths were culturally isolated thousands of years before the familiar mesopotamian tropes arose as we see them today.

[Drich]

But is it anything more than a claim?  I don't think so.


So now we're "phonies" because we think your religion is nonsense?  My, my -- aren't you the precious one.

I think it would be appropriate for you to lose your faith and join the rest of us "phonies" in the real world.  

 As far as I'm aware Christianity contains no original features 

 A few examples below. Found after a very brief search.

God as man:

Ancient Greek gods habitually took human form and lived among humans.--lest any Christian claim these are myths, I reply so is the Christian claim of Jesus as the son of God, to me and I think more than a few atheists.

Same goes for Hinduism; the God Krishna  often appeared  in human form. Perhaps the best known example can be found in the Baghavad
Gita .(The Song OF God) This is part of the Mahabharata, one of Hinduism's most revered .In the Gita , Krishna has a conversation a man called Arjuna, explaining the origin of suffering. The Gita is a sublimely  beautiful book, which answers one of the great questions men have asked for millennia: why do we suffer?. The explanation is simple and elegant, providing a rational answer where Christianity  cannot.

Virgin Birth:

" It is a fact that divine births were so commonly accepted among ancient people that whenever they hear of one who has greatly distinguish himself, they immediately classify such a person as having been born of a supernatural lineage. The learned Thomas Maurice in his book called Indian Antiquities, goes far as to state that “in every age and in almost every religion of the Asiatic world, there seems uniformly to have flourished an immemorial tradition that one god had from all eternity begotten another god”It is a fact that divine births were so commonly accepted among ancient people that whenever they hear of one who has greatly distinguish himself, they immediately classify such a person as having been born of a supernatural lineage. The learned Thomas Maurice in his book called Indian Antiquities, goes far as to state that “in every age and in almost every religion of the Asiatic world, there seems uniformly to have flourished an immemorial tradition that one god had from all eternity begotten another god”

https://www.nairaland.com/193520/there-m...gin-births

 The dying and resurrecting god has been part of fertility religions for millennia. And I think in South American civilisations, independently.

Son of God: Horus; son of the goddess, mother Isis  and  her brother the god Osiris.

what about a personal direct relationship with God himself? in this life, no intmedaries needed, no preists no prophets just you and God? I must of missed where zuse offered that or was the poseidon? maybe the one of those south american religions offers to put each and every member before the living God right here in this life. miss that bit did ja? most ex sunday school now turned atheist do... while  life long christians seem to get it... hmmm wonder if one has anything to do with the other???