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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:40 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:41 pm by Acrobat.)
(April 4, 2019 at 3:29 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: (April 4, 2019 at 3:22 pm)Acrobat Wrote: I don’t know about your specific emotional reaction, but some truths are aesthetic in nature, moral truths being one such example.
Even the common claim of atheists here, that they desire truth, can only be true, if truth is something ultimately desirable. There has to be something that draws us to it, to provoke us to seek it. Or else you’re just seeking the feeling of truthiness than truth itself
It's not just my emotional reactions which are suspect, but those of all humans due to our habitual tendency to be conditioned by our environments, families, and societies. Such conditioning routinely warps our perceptions of the facts. This has been shown to be true again and again in psychological studies.
Facts have utility. They help us operate effectively in the world they describe. That is what makes difficult, ugly, and even painful truths desirable. Like being diagnosed with cancer, it's better to know some things in a timely manner.
We are biological creatures, all our reactions are biological. Saying your suspect of your emotional reactions is not much different than saying your suspect of your biological reactions, a state of perpetual doubt, and uncertainty.
So is your desire for utility, for useful things, and not truth? If believing a lie is more useful than believing a truth, why would you desire truth?
If you doubt that truth has intrinsic aesthetic quality about it, then you should also doubt that truth is intrinsic useful. Your desire are for what conscience to and useful, not necessarily truthful.
You also haven’t mentioned anything about moral truths.
Care to provide a moral truth, and indicate why it’s absent of any aesthetic property, yet can be called moral?
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:46 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Aesthetic properties refer to what we see as beautiful or ugly, and this is how you've consistently used the term. Moral properties relate to how we see things as good or bad.
A good thing can be ugly or pretty. A bad thing can be pretty or ugly. Both good and bad things can be neither ugly nor pretty. Aesthetic beauty is not a requirement of moral content or import. Things with moral content or import -may- also possess some aesthetic quality, but it's clearly coincidental and subjectively variable in the event that they do.
-and none of this..has any gods in it....so...?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:47 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:47 pm by Acrobat.)
(April 4, 2019 at 3:39 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I meant exactly what I said. There are no gods in what I assume you're presenting as some reason to believe in gods.
It’s not clear me what you as an atheist mean by the term “god or gods”, at best it seems to be a reference to some sort of Santa Claus in the sky that’s grants wishes and performs magic tricks, and I indicated I don’t believe in such a God, so I’m not sure why your suggesting I ought to appeal to such a god in my arguments.
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:49 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It should be clear to you what you mean, though. Make the case for that.
Or, if you think you have, quote one of those previous comments and edit whatever word you took to communicate what you mean by "god" in bold.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:50 pm
(April 4, 2019 at 3:46 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Aesthetic properties refer to what we see as beautiful or ugly, and this is how you've consistently used the term. Moral properties relate to how we see things as good or bad.
A good thing can be ugly or pretty. A bad thing can be pretty or ugly. Both good and bad things can be neither ugly nor pretty. Aesthetic beauty is not a requirement of moral content or import.
No good and bad are aesthetic qualities. When you call a movie, song, etc good, you’re saying something about the aesthetic quality of these things.
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:53 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Pure equivocation, lol. When I tell you that a song is good I'm not commenting on moral comment. When I tell you that an act with moral content is good I'm not commenting on it's beauty.
Does this have anything to do with a god?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:55 pm
(April 4, 2019 at 3:49 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: It should be clear to you what you mean, though. Make the case for that.
Or, if you think you have, quote one of those previous comments and replace whatever word you tookto communicate as "god" in bold.
Why? If I can argue my views without having to use the word God, thereby avoiding have to deal with your caricature conceptions of God, and having to spell everything out for you, why not? Particularly when you disagree with these views, even absent of mentioning God in them?
Why can’t you stick to the views I’ve expressed? Why I can’t my arguments be solely about them?
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 3:57 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 3:58 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If your views dont require reference to a god then they aren't the reason that you believe in a god, nor would they be a reason for anyone else to believe in a god.
You can discuss anything you like. Your arguments can be solely about anything you like. If, however, these are meant to be indicative of gods, whatever you mean by that..........
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 4:01 pm
(April 4, 2019 at 3:53 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Pure equivocation, lol. When I tell you that a song is good I'm not commenting on moral comment. When I tell you that an act with moral content is good I'm not commenting on it's beauty.
When you say an act is good, good is an aesthetic comment about the act.
If doing good isn’t fundamentally more attractive than doing bad, why ought I do good? If sustaining my marriage isnt more attractive than destroying it, why ought I sustain it?
We’ll take this piece by piece for you.
Name an acts that morally good.
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RE: Do you wish there's a god?
April 4, 2019 at 4:03 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2019 at 4:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Killing the enemy is good. Ugly as shit, but a moral imperative. Providing affection for my children is good, also beautiful. Adhering to the speed limit is good, but is neither ugly nor beautiful.
My favorite song is beautiful, but morally reprehensible. My least favorite song is ugly but morally righteous. Most music is meh and neither good nor bad in a moral sense.
Pure...equivocation...Acro.
IDK what your compulsion to good is. I assume you have one, but even if you didn't it wouldn't change it's moral nature. I could give you an ugly reason, a beautiful reason, or an aesthetically neutral reason. Thing is, we've only added a third distinct thing. Now were talking about beautiful and ugly, good and bad, and why you do things.
Are any of these things to do with whatever you mean by gods?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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