Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it

[The Grand Nudger]

Did you want something other than what you asked for and got?  Perhaps you should have asked for that other thing.

[Lek]

Just because you disagree with my definition of what shaming is -- and I'm not sure why you think you get to define that for abortion, especially given that you're not a woman.  Meaning that you'll never have to make that decision in your life -- does not mean that the rest of your post was relevant in the least.

It doesn't matter if you've never picketed.  You're on this message board right now right here giving your unsolicited opinion where all can see it.  To women who may have had an abortion, or at least considered it (and I know the latter exist on this board because I'm one of them).  Language like "Killing your baby" is 100% about shaming.  And language like "you don't like the brutally obvious and unavoidable fact" is 100% about shaming.  It's also about judgment.  

So if anyone is representing their position with the grace and nobility of a Christian apologist, it's you.  Congratulations, you've nailed it!  All this "It's not judgement!  i'm just saying if you abort a baby you are LITERALLY KILLING YOUR BABY!"  Which is equivalent to "I don't hate gay people! I just want to tell them their lifestyle is wrong, and that they'll burn in hell for eternity for loving someone of the same sex."

Sounded like he was stating his opinion. When you make your statements concerning christian apologists are you stating your opinion or trying to shame them?

[Mermaid]

What I don't like is the idea that as men we are not allowed to have an opinion or care about it.

Of course you are allowed. Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Figbash]

I say we have automatic vasectomies for every 15 year old male. Then, when they come of age, they have to go in front of an all-female panel who will determine if the vasectomy should be revised (for reproductive purposes.)

Problem solved!

[Nihilist Virus]

Just because you disagree with my definition of what shaming is -- and I'm not sure why you think you get to define that for abortion, especially given that you're not a woman.  Meaning that you'll never have to make that decision in your life -- does not mean that the rest of your post was relevant in the least.

It doesn't matter if you've never picketed.  You're on this message board right now right here giving your unsolicited opinion where all can see it.  To women who may have had an abortion, or at least considered it (and I know the latter exist on this board because I'm one of them).  Language like "Killing your baby" is 100% about shaming.  And language like "you don't like the brutally obvious and unavoidable fact" is 100% about shaming.  It's also about judgment.  

So if anyone is representing their position with the grace and nobility of a Christian apologist, it's you.  Congratulations, you've nailed it!  All this "It's not judgement!  i'm just saying if you abort a baby you are LITERALLY KILLING YOUR BABY!"  Which is equivalent to "I don't hate gay people! I just want to tell them their lifestyle is wrong, and that they'll burn in hell for eternity for loving someone of the same sex."

Sounded like he was stating his opinion.  When you make your statements concerning christian apologists are you stating your opinion or trying to shame them?

Christian apologists should be shamed. They lie for a living. I understand that they're a bit like pregnant women with no support system - apologists and preachers generally have no legitimate education, work experience, or marketable skills - so I can see why they feel stuck in their position. But nothing said can change the fact that they are dishonorable cunts, every last one of them, and if they had a spine they'd go get a real fucking job.

[Lek]

Sounded like he was stating his opinion.  When you make your statements concerning christian apologists are you stating your opinion or trying to shame them?

Christian apologists should be shamed. They lie for a living. I understand that they're a bit like pregnant women with no support system - apologists and preachers generally have no legitimate education, work experience, or marketable skills - so I can see why they feel stuck in their position.  But nothing said can change the fact that they are dishonorable cunts, every last one of them, and if they had a spine they'd go get a real fucking job.

I see.  Who decides who should be shamed?  I guess, according to you, the one doing the shaming can do that.  Or are you the only one qualified to do that?  By your remarks I can see that your "legitimate" education didn't teach you to do that.

[The Grand Nudger]

The people who say shameful things decide that for themselves, lol.

[Succubus]

I say we have automatic vasectomies for every 15 year old male. Then, when they come of age, they have to go in front of an all-female panel who will determine if the vasectomy should be revised (for reproductive purposes.)

Problem solved!

 'I' say a universal contraceptive should be added to the water supply. And when they come of age both partners have to appear before me for an assessment.
Depending on the results of the questionnaire, I might issue an antidote.

[Amarok]

Forcing a women to carry the fetus to term against her will is equivalent to rape in my opinion

Hmm. Well I'd say it's closer to kidnapping, since you'd more or less have to do that to ensure she does not have the opportunity to destroy the fetus. But rape and kidnapping are closely related, at least legally speaking, as they both can carry a life sentence (but that is rarely enforced) and they both have varying degrees, including the least malicious kind (statutory rape, where it is "consensual" sex with, say, a 17 year old, and a parent "kidnapping" his/her child when the child does not even know a kidnap is occurring and is not in fear for his/her safety).

and weather the fetus is human or not is aside the point as even if it were it has no right to inhabit another being against their will or use elements of their body against their will ,

Of course the fetus is a human.  What else would it be? A chipmunk?  I assume you meant to say "person."

And you're right. As it happens a fetus more or less has no rights at all.  But rights are a legal concept, and I'm talking about morality. I illustrated how the law has nothing to do with morality. I hope that is not a point in dispute because in my life I've found this to be painfully obvious.

And no we allow parenthood to be a choice if abortion were illegally pregnancy would not be a choice so that comparison will fail , And no the fetus is neither innocent or guilty I don't believe such terms can be used on a fetus .

Uh... ok...?

1. You clearly don't get it forcing a women to carry it to term is equivalent to rape because you are forcing her to use her body against her will and no it's nothing like a kidnapping .


2. My point was it doesn't matter either way and no I'm talking of moral rights not legal ones so I was on point 

3. Not sure what you don't get . We allow parenthood to be choice I was  using this a preempt against the whole "but parenthood is using here body often against her will " and the other argument was to counter the common retort " it's wrong to kill an innocent life "

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Nihilist Virus Wrote: [/url]

Or maybe you just don't like the brutally obvious and unavoidable fact that abortion is killing your baby and so you're lashing out

Nice argument from motivation

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@[url=https://atheistforums.org/user-8327.html]Divinity The stigma and majority issues aside, shouldn't people struggle with the decision? It would be those that don't struggle (fetus are like a wart) with the decision I would be concerned with.

Nope the idea is pretty clear cut

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I don't give half a shit about stigma. Meat and abortion are the same thing. It's the killing of a viable life form with a survival instinct and the capacity to suffer and feel pain so that others may benefit from it.

As opposed to letting another being use someone's body for their own benefit wither knowingly or not

[Nihilist Virus]

Christian apologists should be shamed. They lie for a living. I understand that they're a bit like pregnant women with no support system - apologists and preachers generally have no legitimate education, work experience, or marketable skills - so I can see why they feel stuck in their position.  But nothing said can change the fact that they are dishonorable cunts, every last one of them, and if they had a spine they'd go get a real fucking job.

I see.  Who decides who should be shamed?  I guess, according to you, the one doing the shaming can do that.  Or are you the only one qualified to do that?  By your remarks I can see that your "legitimate" education didn't teach you to do that.

Society decides. It's been decided that lying for personal gain is shameful behavior. Do you disagree with any of that?