Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality

[brewer]

Ya know that men actually made up these stories simply claiming it was from god for effect.  

Can you imagine what would happen if men did that today? (please exclude the mormons and a few others from this train of logic)

If we treated our children the way the bible claims god teats his we'd be put in jail for child abuse, child neglect, and child endangerment.

So............ it shouldn't be a guide book for a modern culture or society?



(and OMG, god teats)

[The Grand Nudger]

No sane Christian is actually following those verses or using it as their exclusive source of morality, though. 

The superfun thing about magic book is that it's a massive grab bag of shitty verses that people do follow.  We're all aware that people don't actually believe the contents are flawless, as alluded to, even christians routinely ignore this and that.  

Begs the question, though, if they have a functional understanding of right and wrong and have excluded those nasty bits.....why do they retain the others?

[Rhondazvous]

There are some real moral gems in the book... there really are. But if someone actually used the Bible as an exclusive source of their morality, that would scare the shit out of me. Luckily, nobody DOES treat it as their exclusive moral guide. They use their own brains (like they ought) to figure out their basic moral principles.

The Golden rule- excellent. Forgive thy neighbor and try not to judge- excellent. There ARE good moral principles to be found in the Bible. But there are also terrible ones. Going to the high priest for a creepy abortion- foul! Judging whether a rape occured by who heard a woman cry out- foul!

If any Christians decide to address your (completely legitimate) concerns, get ready for some slippery apologetics.

Nice post, Rhonda. I found it to be quite thoughtful and thorough.

No sane Christian is actually following those verses or using it as their exclusive source of morality, though. Which is why I don't see the point in topics like these, of which there are hundreds. Yeah, the Bible says awful shit. So? What does it matter? What's the point? Is it to make Christians feel bad, or so us atheists can all just jerk each other off and say "Yeah! Fuck Christianity!" I haven't bothered to really venture into any Biblical discussions online in... a very long time, because I don't really get it. Unless it's a legitimate discussion where both sides are interested in a mature analysis of the text, which is a laughable fantasy.

Drich or someone else will come in and say you don't understand it, and then cite ten more verses that contradict the OP, then an atheist will say "what about these ones that contradict yours," then Drich will say "what about these other ones that contradict your contradictions that contradicted the OP," and then they'll both call each other names and use the caps lock.

If you don't see the point, why are you even in the christian section? There are plenty other sections: atheism, science, news, art. There's no reason for you to be here at all.

My purpose for bringing up these issues is because there are a lot of people like me who have been subjected to years of brainwashing and quasi-reason. I'm not going to sit back and let the church have the mic all to themselves.

I enjoy people like Drippy. He makes my point that Christianity is crap better than I do.

---

No sane Christian is actually following those verses or using it as their exclusive source of morality, though. 

The superfun thing about magic book is that it's a massive grab bag of shitty verses that people do follow.  We're all aware that people don't actually believe the contents are flawless, as alluded to, even christians routinely ignore this and that.  

Begs the question, though, if they have a functional understanding of right and wrong and have excluded those nasty bits.....why do they retain the others?

Most people cling to religion for emotional and social reasons. The church is very good at training people to ignore problematic verses in the bible.

I remember when I was deep in Christianity, I'd read things and questions would occur to me. Like in Genesis when god tells Cain if he does well he will be accepted or in Revelations when god pours tribulation on people and then acts surprised when they don't turn to him with love. I'd wonder why this god has so little understanding of the psychology of his creation.

But as long as I had an emotional need to believe and have a "personal relationship with Jesus"I'd sweep such troubling questions under the rug. When my emotional needs shifted I was ready to re examine these questions.

[chimp3]

All morality is human morality. Theists simply claim their's is superior. Even though it is still human.

[AFTT47]

Christians say we need god because without him we have no basis for living a moral life.

Yes, one of their most ludicrous claims and biggest lies.

Their argument might be somewhat convincing if the only Christian guidebook they have (The Wholly Babble) was consistent. As your example verses point out however, it is not. In fact it is SO inconsistent, the top tier of Christian leaders cannot agree.

Look at the Vatican. They actually have to vote to choose a Pope! The guy who hands down God's decree is chosen by a vote because even the the most learned leaders of their religion cannot agree what is actually moral. No surprise considering their chaotic guidebook.

That being the case, how in the hell is a casual follower supposed to derive a basis for living a moral life by following a religion who's most studied adherents cannot find common ground? Obviously, they cannot.

[Rhondazvous]

All morality is human morality. Theists simply claim their's is superior. Even though it is still human.

You need a god to claim that a moral standard that allows genocide, rape, slavery, etc. is superior to one that doesn't.

[Drich]

Christians say we need god because without him we have no basis for living a moral life. If the bible is the manual of Christian morality,  it's no wonder the church is screwed up in what it deems as right or wrong.

Rape
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. (Deuteronomy 22”23-28)
How odd that there’s no commandment saying thou shalt not rape a woman. Instead, we get instructions on how to do it lawfully.  Rape isn’t seen as a crime against women but against the husband or betrothed.  A man has to marry the unwed woman that he rapes. Whether the woman wants to be in a Luke and Laura marriage isn’t at issue.
Misogyny
10 When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive,
11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife,
12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails.
13 She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.
14 And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
It's very compassionate that this god commanded the men to let the captive mourn her parents whom they just killed for a whole month before they rape her. And if she doesn't please them they can throw her out on the street--a motherless child a long way from home. Few Christians would condone such hideous behavior, yet few Christians have the courage to admit the god in this book is not the god they want to serve
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. (Exodus 21”4,8)
This is the god who said thou shalt not when it comes to abusing your neighbor’s donkey. But here he is laissez faire when you want to sell your daughter into sexual slavery and even gives instructions on how to do it.


Child Abuse
If you have children, you know that at times their behavior can be so rotten that you almost want to kill them. But would you? Well, the god of the Bible would and according to the Bible he has.
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" 24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. (2 Kings 2:23-24)
No matter how bad they get would you follow God's law for what should be done to your children?
18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard. ' 21Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.  (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
What could your child do to make you feel justified to have him stoned to death? What could your dog do, for that matter?


Genocide
For God so loved the world that he sent his so-called chosen people to wipe out entire cities.
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'  (1 Samuel 15:3)
This order was given by the same god whom Christians today think is too merciful to send babies and small children to hell.
10 "When you go near a city to fight against it, then proclaim an offer of peace to it. 11 And it shall be that if they accept your offer of peace, and open to you, then all the people who are found in it shall be placed under tribute to you, and serve you. 12 Now if the city will not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the Lord your God delivers it into your hands, you shall strike every male in it with the edge of the sword. 14 But the women, the little ones, the livestock, and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall plunder for yourself; and you shall eat the enemies' plunder which the Lord your God gives you.  (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

but Christians have an answer for this argument. You see, this is just an example of God’s justice under the old t testament, as opposed to his mercy under the new testament.  No, this is an example of desert goatherds stealing land and claiming divine right.

Slavery
44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have--from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.  (Leviticus 25:44-46)
Always in Church they point to the passages where God tells the children of Israel to be kind to strangers. Never in 25 years of study have I seen this passage where he tells them they can buy the children of strangers. I'd been steered clear away from it. Below are more verses to which ministers give a wide berth.
2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. 3 If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'
6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6)
Humane Treatment of Sex slaves Exodus 21:7-11
7 "And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. 9 And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. 10 If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. 11 And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money.
20 And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.  (Exodus 21:20,21)
“If he remains alive for a day or two?”

Abortion
Ask any Christian where they got the idea that abortion is wrong, and they won’t be able to point to any scripture. Few know however that the bible actually condones abortion and gives explicit instructions on how a man can force his wife to abort if he suspects he’s not the father.
If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. (Numbers 5:27 NIV)
Talk about Bill Cunningham in the ancient world. Here’s the biblical DNA  test to see if a woman has been faithful to her husband. This ought to be on reality television.
Reward and Punishment
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that  justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Abraham lies but the king was punished. (romans 4:5)
The verb justify is a proactive action that goes beyond mere condoning and declares that the ungodly are actually righteous. No matter what they do—lying, stealing, destroy, murdering, raping—you name it, if they have faith, this verse says god will declare them righteous.
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. (Genesis 19:30-38)
Some Christians might try to say this was because they didn’t have the law, so they didn’t know better. If they didn’t know what they were doing was wrong, why did they get him drunk first. Remember, too, these are the daughters he offered to the mob of angry men. Doubtless, there wasn’t much love or respect lost here.
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt (Genesis 19: 26)
The old testament is supposed to be the dispensation of judgement rather than mercy. So, we can expect draconian punishments during that time.  By some screwed up standard of morality what Lot’s wife did warranted  immediate retribution while what his daughters did could be overlooked.
6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. (2 Samuel 6:6,7)

How dare he presume to help god. God doesn’t need our help. He can take care of his own ark. Thank you.  So next time you some holy relic looking like it’s getting ready to fall, think about Uzzah.
Christian apologist say God killed him because by touching the ark he violated the law. So, is this an example of which laws have the greater priority? Uzzah was dead before he had time to think about what he was doing. He made a simple mistake that anybody could make. But King David actually had a man killed to hide the fact that he’d slept with the man’s wife. God sent a prophet to let David know that what he’d done was wrong. As if he didn’t know.
Apparently. the law that said thou shalt not touch the ark of god was far more important than the law that said thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
He hardens pharaoh’s heart
Hos only answer I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy
Who am I to question god? I’m a human. A sentient being with thoughts and feelings, the ability to  perceive injustice. Am I to believe god created me with these wonderful faculties but expects me to think like a lifeless piece of pottery?

three things... this should be in the judaism side of the web site as these instances are apart of jewish system of rules and regulations concerning God 
and 

Two these specific instances where specific things happened one time occurrences to shape the future. little to no instances where commands for everyday law.

do you judge your grand mother or people in your family of that generation or older because the looked at whites chinese or indians differently, what about gay people, do you think your grand mother's generation held the same view to gays we do now?? do you judge them immoral because they may have harbored hatred or even feared people they did not know or understand? 

No you give them a pass because different time different set of social rules different morality. it was ok for blacks to hate whites because of slavery, never mind most black people loved their owners so much they took their last names and continued to worked for them at a slave wage. but again even so it was ok for black to hate whites then right? times where different and we wouldn't be able to understand now.

yet you hypocritically hold christianity to a 4000 year old standard 2000 years before christianity was even a whisper as if what you posted where the core rules of christian life.

Where does the bull shit stop with you people? why is it ok to persecute a christian's beliefs concerning the specific instances (not even rules) but allowances that happened 2000+ years before christianity became a religion, yet just 2 generations back you pardon your family for doing things then pop morality demands blood for now? why is it ok for you as a pop moral person to look 4000 years back into a completely different religion and demand christianity take responsibility for these acts when your own family where immoral despots according to the same standard you judge us by?

hypocrites!

my hope is maybe you just want to know why God can be considered moral when you judge the things he allows as immoral.

The quick answer is your standard of morality has changed so much... what once was good is now evil and what once was evil is now good.

To you and all pop moraly 'good people' death is always wrong unless someone elects it for themselves. when before death was our birth into eternity to be with God. but at the same time it was wrong to elect death for yur self... do you already see the contrast?

When you kill god and there is no after life nor eternity and all there is is this life... then this life becomes the gold standard and everything"morality centers around it." meaning if this life is cut short and your pop world view says this life is all there is what greater crime can their be?

If how ever your world view is bible based then your view of the world and this life is much more expansive. meaning if this life is taken then it is a simple graduation to the next. in essence when we die here we simply wake up from the matrix. so in truth nothing that happens in the matrix to the body is of any consequence. as those bodies this life was not ours but an illusion. Meaning this life is nothing more than a dream, no matter what happens in the dream good or bad  waking a person up from the dream (Ie death as we call it in this life) is not a bad thing in fact waking us up to live eternally is a good thing.

It is when you do not believe in eternity or god does death become the greatest sin.

That's why God seems flipant to someone like you who worships the dream you live in. make no mistake at some point whether you are ready or ot you will be waken from this dream.

[Brian37]

Christians say we need god because without him we have no basis for living a moral life. If the bible is the manual of Christian morality,  it's no wonder the church is screwed up in what it deems as right or wrong.

Rape
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. (Deuteronomy 22”23-28)
How odd that there’s no commandment saying thou shalt not rape a woman. Instead, we get instructions on how to do it lawfully.  Rape isn’t seen as a crime against women but against the husband or betrothed.  A man has to marry the unwed woman that he rapes. Whether the woman wants to be in a Luke and Laura marriage isn’t at issue.
Misogyny
10 When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive,
11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife,
12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails.
13 She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.
14 And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
It's very compassionate that this god commanded the men to let the captive mourn her parents whom they just killed for a whole month before they rape her. And if she doesn't please them they can throw her out on the street--a motherless child a long way from home. Few Christians would condone such hideous behavior, yet few Christians have the courage to admit the god in this book is not the god they want to serve
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. (Exodus 21”4,8)
This is the god who said thou shalt not when it comes to abusing your neighbor’s donkey. But here he is laissez faire when you want to sell your daughter into sexual slavery and even gives instructions on how to do it.


Child Abuse
If you have children, you know that at times their behavior can be so rotten that you almost want to kill them. But would you? Well, the god of the Bible would and according to the Bible he has.
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" 24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. (2 Kings 2:23-24)
No matter how bad they get would you follow God's law for what should be done to your children?
18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard. ' 21Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.  (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
What could your child do to make you feel justified to have him stoned to death? What could your dog do, for that matter?


Genocide
For God so loved the world that he sent his so-called chosen people to wipe out entire cities.
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'  (1 Samuel 15:3)
This order was given by the same god whom Christians today think is too merciful to send babies and small children to hell.
10 "When you go near a city to fight against it, then proclaim an offer of peace to it. 11 And it shall be that if they accept your offer of peace, and open to you, then all the people who are found in it shall be placed under tribute to you, and serve you. 12 Now if the city will not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the Lord your God delivers it into your hands, you shall strike every male in it with the edge of the sword. 14 But the women, the little ones, the livestock, and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall plunder for yourself; and you shall eat the enemies' plunder which the Lord your God gives you.  (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

but Christians have an answer for this argument. You see, this is just an example of God’s justice under the old t testament, as opposed to his mercy under the new testament.  No, this is an example of desert goatherds stealing land and claiming divine right.

Slavery
44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have--from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.  (Leviticus 25:44-46)
Always in Church they point to the passages where God tells the children of Israel to be kind to strangers. Never in 25 years of study have I seen this passage where he tells them they can buy the children of strangers. I'd been steered clear away from it. Below are more verses to which ministers give a wide berth.
2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. 3 If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'
6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6)
Humane Treatment of Sex slaves Exodus 21:7-11
7 "And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. 9 And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. 10 If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. 11 And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money.
20 And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.  (Exodus 21:20,21)
“If he remains alive for a day or two?”

Abortion
Ask any Christian where they got the idea that abortion is wrong, and they won’t be able to point to any scripture. Few know however that the bible actually condones abortion and gives explicit instructions on how a man can force his wife to abort if he suspects he’s not the father.
If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. (Numbers 5:27 NIV)
Talk about Bill Cunningham in the ancient world. Here’s the biblical DNA  test to see if a woman has been faithful to her husband. This ought to be on reality television.
Reward and Punishment
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that  justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Abraham lies but the king was punished. (romans 4:5)
The verb justify is a proactive action that goes beyond mere condoning and declares that the ungodly are actually righteous. No matter what they do—lying, stealing, destroy, murdering, raping—you name it, if they have faith, this verse says god will declare them righteous.
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. (Genesis 19:30-38)
Some Christians might try to say this was because they didn’t have the law, so they didn’t know better. If they didn’t know what they were doing was wrong, why did they get him drunk first. Remember, too, these are the daughters he offered to the mob of angry men. Doubtless, there wasn’t much love or respect lost here.
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt (Genesis 19: 26)
The old testament is supposed to be the dispensation of judgement rather than mercy. So, we can expect draconian punishments during that time.  By some screwed up standard of morality what Lot’s wife did warranted  immediate retribution while what his daughters did could be overlooked.
6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. (2 Samuel 6:6,7)

How dare he presume to help god. God doesn’t need our help. He can take care of his own ark. Thank you.  So next time you some holy relic looking like it’s getting ready to fall, think about Uzzah.
Christian apologist say God killed him because by touching the ark he violated the law. So, is this an example of which laws have the greater priority? Uzzah was dead before he had time to think about what he was doing. He made a simple mistake that anybody could make. But King David actually had a man killed to hide the fact that he’d slept with the man’s wife. God sent a prophet to let David know that what he’d done was wrong. As if he didn’t know.
Apparently. the law that said thou shalt not touch the ark of god was far more important than the law that said thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
He hardens pharaoh’s heart
Hos only answer I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy
Who am I to question god? I’m a human. A sentient being with thoughts and feelings, the ability to  perceive injustice. Am I to believe god created me with these wonderful faculties but expects me to think like a lifeless piece of pottery?

three things... this should be in the judaism side of the web site as these instances are apart of jewish system of rules and regulations concerning God 
and 

Two these specific instances where specific things happened one time occurrences to shape the future. little to no instances where commands for everyday law.

do you judge your grand mother or people in your family of that generation or older because the looked at whites chinese or indians differently, what about gay people, do you think your grand mother's generation held the same view to gays we do now?? do you judge them immoral because they may have harbored hatred or even feared people they did not know or understand? 

No you give them a pass because different time different set of social rules different morality. it was ok for blacks to hate whites because of slavery, never mind most black people loved their owners so much they took their last names and continued to worked for them at a slave wage. but again even so it was ok for black to hate whites then right? times where different and we wouldn't be able to understand now.

yet you hypocritically hold christianity to a 4000 year old standard 2000 years before christianity was even a whisper as if what you posted where the core rules of christian life.

Where does the bull shit stop with you people? why is it ok to persecute a christian's beliefs concerning the specific instances (not even rules) but allowances that happened 2000+ years before christianity became a religion, yet just 2 generations back you pardon your family for doing things then pop morality demands blood for now? why is it ok for you as a pop moral person to look 4000 years back into a completely different religion and demand christianity take responsibility for these acts when your own family where immoral despots according to the same standard you judge us by?

hypocrites!

my hope is maybe you just want to know why God can be considered moral when you judge the things he allows as immoral.

The quick answer is your standard of morality has changed so much... what once was good is now evil and what once was evil is now good.

To you and all pop moraly 'good people' death is always wrong unless someone elects it for themselves. when before death was our birth into eternity to be with God. but at the same time it was wrong to elect death for yur self... do you already see the contrast?

When you kill god and there is no after life nor eternity and all there is is this life... then this life becomes the gold standard and everything"morality centers around it." meaning if this life is cut short and your pop world view says this life is all there is what greater crime can their be?

If how ever your world view is bible based then your view of the world and this life is much more expansive. meaning if this life is taken then it is a simple graduation to the next. in essence when we die here we simply wake up from the matrix. so in truth nothing that happens in the matrix to the body is of any consequence. as those bodies this life was not ours but an illusion. Meaning this life is nothing more than a dream, no matter what happens in the dream good or bad  waking a person up from the dream (Ie death as we call it in this life) is not a bad thing in fact waking us up to live eternally is a good thing.

It is when you do not believe in eternity or god does death become the greatest sin.

That's why God seems flipant to someone like you who worships the dream you live in. make no mistake at some point whether you are ready or ot you will be waken from this dream.

Your problem with us is you ran into people who don't swallow because you say so.

Nope sorry, I find nothing moral about a book that starts off by treating two innocent human beings as poker chips in a rigged bet. I find nothing moral about murdering the first born because of a beef you have with an adult king. I find nothing moral about an act of genocide, like the flood myth, which would have to include women and children and babies outside the Noah family. I find nothing moral about a fake suicide which tells me whom I have to forgive. I find nothing moral about the end times bullshit which is yet another act of genocide outside those who kiss his ass.

"You'll find out"..... Sorry, your god is not real, but if he were, he'd hardly be someone I'd want to associate with. And no, I am not singling your holy book or religion out. You'd have the same reaction to a Muslim if they threatened you with Allah's wrath.

I don't bow to bullies.

[Drich]

Your problem with us is you ran into people who don't swallow because you say so.

Do you know your problem with me? You try and fit what I have t say into old christian sterotypes, meaning you assume you know what christianity is and you try and catagorise what I say with what you already think about christianty... Hey stupid, You have no idea what the bible says. so you "swallow" (by your own recogning) everything but the truth!

My whole point here in this thread was to point out nothing quoted here has to do with the religion. is anything the quoted passages underscore the 'morality of OT judaism.'

Nope sorry, I find nothing moral about a book that starts off by treating two innocent human beings as poker chips in a rigged bet.

they lived potentially millions if not billions of years dumb ass, how was the bet rigged if not in their favor?
are you too stupid to understand that there is no time line between the end of chapter 2 and the beginning of chapter 3? doesn't your own scientific mind tell you in order for you to consider this story to be a tale of the morality of God' the two in the garden where in that garden for billions of years?

Tell me how a near 20 billion year life is a rigged bet?

oh, me sa no think this way mesa dum gungan.

I find nothing moral about murdering the first born because of a beef you have with an adult king.

Hey stupid God let the king decide for himself what the final plague would be... or are you so hypocritically biased you would blame god for giving you the opportunity to back out yet you choose death of all the first born?!??!

I find nothing moral about an act of genocide, like the flood myth,

bull shite. 1.5 billion dead babies since 1980.. tell me of another genocide of manor god that has taken so man lives! and what's worse you hypocrite? that number is still growing!!!
http://www.numberofabortions.com/

Not only that have you given up your little corner of america back to the native americans? You don't support ANY Genocide.... But you do not mind being the beneficiary of one! what a pos hypocrite you are.

which would have to include women and children and babies outside the Noah family.

trail of tears... small pox blankets all are terrible things... unless you get something out of it.

I find nothing moral about a fake suicide which tells me whom I have to forgive.

o idea what you are talking about.

I find nothing moral about the end times bullshit which is yet another act of genocide outside those who kiss his ass.

wrong again sport. armageddon is about people like you rising up in a grand army t fight against God and his people.

"You'll find out"..... Sorry, your god is not real, but if he were, he'd hardly be someone I'd want to associate with. And no, I am not singling your holy book or religion out. You'd have the same reaction to a Muslim if they threatened you with Allah's wrath.

what wrath of allah stupid?

Alah charges muslims to convert or take over the world.. there is no wrath outside his followers hands.

I don't bow to bullies.

lol do you thinka bully would bow to you? or let me ask you since I once shared that thought... What in you do you think you have that will keep those knees locked up right before god? whatever you think you got there big fella..is not going to keep you up right.. i wish I could see the moment your knees buckled and you go past bow into full prone face in the dirt groveling, actually n that is a sad, very sad moment. when you know it is too late.

Let me just share in all honestly in my moment, the one i had prayed for the moment I was going to spit in the eye of god) I was given a complete understnding of everything how the world worked why and the meaning to all the supposed pain and suffering which again is only best described as a dream. my sheer ignorance my sheer stupidity is what crippled me. for in a moment only I understood it all and got to feel the love that was intended to me, then it was gone. that's when my knees buckled and I droped before christ.

It wasn't a bow before you king thing it was I knew God stood before me and I screwed up and all that I could have had is now gone. you bowing before God is a mis translation in that the idea is every knee will bend and ever tongue will confess. why? because you will be given a glimps of all that was or could have been but for the sake of pride and your foolish understanding of how the world worked.. you sold your eternal future for a moment in the sun where you could talk about showing god your ass before you bowed before him.

I bowed because i was broken by the understanding i was the bully... a very stupid one who did not care to use the resources at hand, rather i choose to remain in ignorance despite opportunities i had passed up to grow as a person

[The Grand Nudger]

Christianity hasn't improved you a bit, then, it would seem.  Still ignorant, still don't care to use the resources at hand, still a bully.  

You've been reduced to threatening people who don't believe in your silly little fairy...and mostly, because they've laughed at your fundamentally ridiculous beliefs, ridiculous even for a christian.

This was never a very good choice of venue for the show you wanted to put on man, lol.