Vision and Evolution (A Critique of Dawkins)

[The Grand Nudger]

It’ll meander on to some other “gap”, real or imagined, when Johns stock complaints about this one run out.

None of it will ever matter, ofc. His issue isn’t any issue of facts, and no set of facts will satisfy his issue.

[John 6IX Breezy]

So topic about eye turned into discussion about conciousness - go figure.

Why wouldn't it? If you know anything about vision, or followed the discussion, you would know that the two go hand in hand. If anything my OP is criticising those who look at the eye without looking at things such as consciousness. So thanks for the demonstration.

[The Grand Nudger]

Model based control is a current avenue for investigating that relationship.

Do you have some other proposal? What evidence would you refer to in order to make that case?

[John 6IX Breezy]

You have zero interest in finding out the unknown.   Your interest in the unknown lies primarily in the sanctuary of ignorance they seem to you and your needy and wishthinking ilk to provide for your god.    If what you imagine to have been a nice protective unknown is becoming known, you would stoop to any dishonesty to resist the discoveries and their implications in order to avoid acknowledging that your god is being driven out of yet another hideout.

So give us a break, don’t wax lyrical about “mild interest in unknown”.   Your interest in the unknown is not a worthy interest for anyone with any genuine intellectual honesty, nor are our interest in the unknown of a kind you would have the moral strength to embrace.

All that from me saying that vision requires more than the evolution of the eye lol. Don't worry, I'll keep your straw man safe, it'll benefit us both.

[The Grand Nudger]

It doesn’t.

Oh my goodness, Johnism has gaps. It can’t account for instances in which vision is not accompanied by consciousness. Mostly because johnism asserts that you need more than an organ that can see, to see.

Meanwhile, Johnism certainly has no explanation for those instances in which vision and consciousness are related, like control theories. Yet another gap in johnism. Like the gap of being unable to account for biology without destinations.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Model based control is a current avenue for investigating that relationship.

Do you have some other proposal? What evidence would you refer to in order to make that case?

I haven't come across model based control before; the only thing I can find by googling is model-based design. Can you give me a quick summary of it, or link me to a review article if there is one?

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Oh my goodness, Johnism has gaps.  It can’t account for instances in which vision is not accompanied by consciousness.  Mostly because johnism asserts that you need more than an organ that can see, to see.

I don't know what Johnism is, or why it can't account for vision without consciousness (I would refer proponents of Johnism to look at things such as blind-sight), but Johnism seems irrelevant when it comes to evolution accounting for the things I've already mentioned.

[The Grand Nudger]

Go ahead, tell us how johnism refers to blind sight to explain vision without consciousness.

The things you’ve mentioned have nothing to do with evolutionary theory and what it accounts for or doesn’t, as the example of model based control demonstrates.

They’re johnisms. The floor is yours. Tell us how things really work, fill these gaps in johnism.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Go ahead, tell us how johnism refers to blind sight to explain vision without consciousness.

The things you’ve mentioned have nothing to do with evolution.  They’re johnisms.

Blindsight occurs when the portions of the brain that give rise to the conscious experience of vision aren't working, but the sensory portion of the visual system are fine. However, because there are most likely projections from vision to other areas of the brain, such as affective regions, there are ways for visual information to bypass direct consciousness, but have an indirect influence on consciousness with things like intuitions and gut feelings.

To call it vision is a stretch; but so is to say they're blind. In any case, blindsight helps illustrate the issues vision runs into when it needs to evolve by gradual increments; let's hope the organism evolved those additional projections pathways.

[LastPoet]

So John Breezy is a pigeon. I saw that on the first post. The avalanche of evolutionary facts are like fleas to his overwhelming ignorance. Heh, social sciences like psychology are useful, my suster is a psychologist and she's doing a fine job helping people overcome addictions at work. She even invited me to do a lecture at her work, because of my past recovery from drug use. That's good tech job right there.

I learnt many things about that weak science with her, she doesn't accept qualia as decent work in psych research and she is a christian (catholics are christian, right?)

So we see, since the old "eye argument" was shot down, our OP decided to move the goalposts. God of the Gaps.

[John 6IX Breezy]

So John Breezy is a pigeon. I saw that on the first post. The avalanche of evolutionary facts are like fleas to his overwhelming ignorance. Heh, social sciences like psychology are useful, my suster is a psychologist and she's doing a fine job helping people overcome addictions at work. She even invited me to do a lecture at her work, because of my past recovery from drug use. That's good tech job right there.

I learnt many things about that weak science with her, she doesn't accept qualia as decent work in psych research and she is a christian (catholics are christian, right?)

So we see, since the old "eye argument" was shot down, our OP decided to move the goalposts. God of the Gaps.

A lot of people are unaware that psychologists study the brain, and only a subset are clinicians and therapists. So its nice to see someone knows the difference between clinical and experimental aspects of psychology.

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It's customary. Unless your M.O is to run into random forums flailing your arms around.

Ah its customary. I like customs. Well, since I'm new can you send me the link to your introductory post? It'll help me have a reference for when I write my own.