God, Energy and Matter

[Rahn127]

Lek, if everything happens according to your god's will, then everything I've said is actually coming from your god. You are ignoring it because it sounds ridiculous to you.

I'll be the first to admit it is ridiculous, but you must also accept that it's coming from your god.

If you are going to pick and choose what comes from god and what doesn't, then why believe ? It's obvious to me that you aren't a TRUE believer.

[Aegon]

I don't get it. Why are you adding God in it?? Where is it necessary?? I don't understand why you're making that presupposition! I don't understand!!!!

I don't get the reasons why and the hows either. I just believe because God has impressed it on me.

How has he impressed it on you? You should know the "whys" and "hows" when it comes to your own beliefs, no?

[Simon Moon]

I don't get it. Why are you adding God in it?? Where is it necessary?? I don't understand why you're making that presupposition! I don't understand!!!!

I don't get the reasons why and the hows either.  I just believe because God has impressed it on me.

---

So, in my 'condition' (the inability to believe existential claims without demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument), what is my equivalent to AA?

I wasn't bringing in AA to say we all need an "AA".  I was just making the point that alcoholics can do something to change their situations despite a physical predisposition by God to become addicted.

I understood what you meant.

But if AA allows alcoholics to change their predisposition given to them by 'god', then you must also believe that I can do something to change my situation, given to me by 'god', to do something about my predisposition of not being able to believe he exists without demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument.

What can I do about my situation, so I will believe without getting evidence?

In your theology, can anything happen that is not god's will?

No.  But I don't apply that in a manner that God is holding the puppet strings and making us do what he wants.  I think that he willed us to make mistakes when he put us in this world, so that when we make wrong decisions it is according to his will.  It is also his will that we will return to him and that is what will happen.

What I meant was, if 'god' made me with the inability to believe he exists, without evidence and reasoned argument to support his existence, then I have no choice, do I?

If he made me to currently have the inability to believe he exists, but sometime in the future, something happens where I do believe he exists, then isn't that still his doing?

Obviously, 1,000,000's of people die as atheists. If I were to die right now, I would die as an atheist. So, he obviously created some percentage of people to disbelieve he exists.

[Lek]

And is that one the one that talks to you, or one of the ones that talk to others?

You’ve already lost me when it comes to earnest belief.  You don’t actually believe that other people talk to god, or that this is a legitimate concept.  We can see that in your easy derision.  For all you know god was talking....to you,.....through that poster.

I’m just pinging the chasm of your inability to have faith in a god.  Part of the human stain, I suppose.  A preference, instead, for the voices you hear in your own head. Your own voice, elevated to the status of divinity, lol.

Can you explain the difference between what you’ve been posting, and what that poster did?  Some reason not to make the same assumptions about you, that you make about him?  Some reason to accept something when you say it, when you reject the same when others do?

This is, ofc, rhetorical.  You and I both know that you can’t.  So, perhaps...for the benefit of your own faith....you might want to accept that the things god might say aren’t limited to your own beliefs, the things you hear, things you can accept, or people you would accept it from.  As I see it, if this chatty instructor of a god you believe in exists, you’re in school and class is in session.  We lowly posters st af are just tools.  It’s your soul being improved.

-shrugs-

Evidently you didn't get what I was trying to say by my analogy about Donald Trump many posts ago. We all interpret things that exist differently. We have different impressions and views of a certain item, but whatever our impressions are, the item is still what it is.

I've been seeking God and he has impressed me with his existence. I know he exists and I have my beliefs about who and what he is and the path to him. He has revealed himself to countless others who have their own beliefs. We all have the goal of reaching union with God. I'm following my path, but I can't say that someone else's path won't get them to their goal.

We may all have different views of God, but we know he exists and we all want to reach him. We're not going to understand God completely and I don't think he is so petty as to expect someone living in a situation, in which we only can have a limited vision of him, to do so. We don't need to be someone who completely understands God, but someone who wants to be with him.

I attend a christian church, not because I share all their views, but because we worship the same God, because regardless of our images of him, he still is the one God. They're my brothers and sisters in that regard.

---

I don't get the reasons why and the hows either.  I just believe because God has impressed it on me.

How has he impressed it on you? You should know the "whys" and "hows" when it comes to your own beliefs, no?

No. You believe the universe exists, but you don't know the "whys" and "hows". We all believe in stuff that we don't totally understand.

[GrandizerII]

And is that one the one that talks to you, or one of the ones that talk to others?

You’ve already lost me when it comes to earnest belief.  You don’t actually believe that other people talk to god, or that this is a legitimate concept.  We can see that in your easy derision.  For all you know god was talking....to you,.....through that poster.

I’m just pinging the chasm of your inability to have faith in a god.  Part of the human stain, I suppose.  A preference, instead, for the voices you hear in your own head. Your own voice, elevated to the status of divinity, lol.

Can you explain the difference between what you’ve been posting, and what that poster did?  Some reason not to make the same assumptions about you, that you make about him?  Some reason to accept something when you say it, when you reject the same when others do?

This is, ofc, rhetorical.  You and I both know that you can’t.  So, perhaps...for the benefit of your own faith....you might want to accept that the things god might say aren’t limited to your own beliefs, the things you hear, things you can accept, or people you would accept it from.  As I see it, if this chatty instructor of a god you believe in exists, you’re in school and class is in session.  We lowly posters st af are just tools.  It’s your soul being improved.

-shrugs-

Evidently you didn't get what I was trying to say by my analogy about Donald Trump many posts ago. We all interpret things that exist differently. We have different impressions and views of a certain item, but whatever our impressions are, the item is still what it is.

I've been seeking God and he has impressed me with his existence. I know he exists and I have my beliefs about who and what he is and the path to him. He has revealed himself to countless others who have their own beliefs. We all have the goal of reaching union with God. I'm following my path, but I can't say that someone else's path won't get them to their goal.

We may all have different views of God, but we know he exists and we all want to reach him. We're not going to understand God completely and I don't think he is so petty as to expect someone living in a situation, in which we only can have a limited vision of him, to do so. We don't need to be someone who completely understands God, but someone who wants to be with him.

I attend a christian church, not because I share all their views, but because we worship the same God, because regardless of our images of him, he still is the one God. They're my brothers and sisters in that regard.

---

How has he impressed it on you? You should know the "whys" and "hows" when it comes to your own beliefs, no?

No. You believe the universe exists, but you don't know the "whys" and "hows". We all believe in stuff that we don't totally understand.

1. No one knows. Stop pretending you do.

2. There are many potential naturalistic explanations that address the "why" and "how" as well as or even better than God explanations do. For example, the universe necessarily exists because the alternative is not possible. You might not agree with this, but this at the least has as good an explanatory power as "universe is contingent on a being we know nothing about".

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I attend a christian church, not because I share all their views, but because we worship the same God, because regardless of our images of him, he still is the one God. They're my brothers and sisters in that regard.

You've mentioned several times in this thread that there is only one God.  Would you then be as comfortable worshiping in a mosque or a Shinto shrine?  If it's all the same God, does it really make a difference where you worship?

Boru

[Lek]

But if AA allows alcoholics to change their predisposition given to them by 'god', then you must also believe that I can do something to change my situation, given to me by 'god', to do something about my predisposition of not being able to believe he exists without demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument.

What can I do about my situation, so I will believe without getting evidence?

Do what the alcoholic does, make a willful decision against that predisposition.  Allow yourself to honestly seek God and be willing to believe what he impresses on you without requiring solid physical evidence.  You have the ability to act against your predisposition.  If you sincerely seek him and he doesn't give you any assurance, then you've done what you can, but as long as you require God to act on your terms, you won't get there.  Sometimes it doesn't happen immediately, but so what?  What is wrong with remaining open to meeting him on his terms?

What I meant was, if 'god' made me with the inability to believe he exists, without evidence and reasoned argument to support his existence, then I have no choice, do I?

If he made me to currently have the inability to believe he exists, but sometime in the future, something happens where I do believe he exists, then isn't that still his doing?

It's not that you don't have the ability to believe, but rather have a predisposition to require physical evidence.  I'm sure that you have gone against that predisposition at times in your life.  You said you were a christian for many years.  God already gave you the ability to act against that predisposition.  So no.  I don't believe God makes us do anything against our free will.

Obviously, 1,000,000's of people die as atheists. If I were to die right now, I would die as an atheist. So, he obviously created some percentage of people to disbelieve he exists.

Like I said earlier, I don't believe we die when the body dies.  I think we live on in whatever form, maybe another human body, until we reach God.  Other forms may be good or bad.

---

I attend a christian church, not because I share all their views, but because we worship the same God, because regardless of our images of him, he still is the one God. They're my brothers and sisters in that regard.

You've mentioned several times in this thread that there is only one God.  Would you then be as comfortable worshiping in a mosque or a Shinto shrine?  If it's all the same God, does it really make a difference where you worship?

Boru

I would worship in those places, but I would be uncomfortable because of language and cultural differences.  There's a Sikh temple in the city and I've attended a wedding of a friend there, but I don't worship there for the same reasons.  They we're very friendly, but I felt uncomfortable because I don't speak Punjabi and I don't wear a turban and have a foot long beard.

[Simon Moon]

But if AA allows alcoholics to change their predisposition given to them by 'god', then you must also believe that I can do something to change my situation, given to me by 'god', to do something about my predisposition of not being able to believe he exists without demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument.

What can I do about my situation, so I will believe without getting evidence?

Do what the alcoholic does, make a willful decision against that predisposition.

That 'predisposition' you are asking me to act against, is: critical thinking, skepticism, rationality, valid and sound logic, etc. You have to provide me with a rational reason for me to do that first.  

Please demonstrate to me, that by acting against my predisposition of critical thinking, skepticism, rationality, valid and sound logic, I will be more likely to be able to discern fact from fantasy.

And please convince me, that you are not acting in harmony with your predisposition, and convince me that your predisposition is not just gullibility.  

Allow yourself to honestly seek God and be willing to believe what he impresses on you without requiring solid physical evidence.  You have the ability to act against your predisposition.

As I've stated many times previously, I was once a believer. I spent decades sincerely 'seeking god'.

If you sincerely seek him and he doesn't give you any assurance, then you've done what you can, but as long as you require God to act on your terms, you won't get there.  Sometimes it doesn't happen immediately, but so what?  What is wrong with remaining open to meeting him on his terms?

Been there, done that.

It's not that you don't have the ability to believe, but rather have a predisposition to require physical evidence.  I'm sure that you have gone against that predisposition at times in your life.  You said you were a christian for many years.  God already gave you the ability to act against that predisposition.  So no.  I don't believe God makes us do anything against our free will.

It depends on the type of claim, as to whether I will believe without evidence. If you claimed you had a dog, I will believe this without evidence. If you claimed you took a trip to the moon to walk your dog, I will certainly disbelieve this claim, and ask for evidence.

Yes, I believed before I actually learned what constitutes good evidence and rational reasons to believe claims. For years I applied those methods to: alien abductions, bigfoot, Loch Ness, etc, etc. But I did not apply them to my theistic beliefs (compartmentalization is great at protecting bad beliefs from critical thinking). As soon as I applied those methods to my theistic beliefs, it was easy for me to tell they were unwarranted.

[Nay_Sayer]

You don't quite get how free will works, do you?

Luckily the real god, FSM allows its creations, us to do as we please.  FSM only ever asks that you don't be a dick, it's kind of our only rule.
RAmen

The real God doesn't want you to be a dick, but he allows you to be one.

That's exactly what I said. Weird to repeat it but ok.

[Lek]

Well, it seems that it's pretty much all been said here.