Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position

[Mister Agenda]

The usual definition of 'god' is fine by me: a superhuman divine being or spirit worshiped for its supernatural powers. If I capitalize it, I'm talking about one of the 'created the universe' ones. Why would a just deity necessarily be the one that created us if we were created by any deity at all? Maybe the god of clay molded us out of river sediment and the god of justice handles all the 'being just' aspects of reality. Myths are very malleable, and so are deities, their backgrounds and attributes depend largely on what people want them to be. Maybe the gods of clay and justice are still with us and actively participating in human affairs without being obvious about it; and we'd get more justice and better ceramics if we prayed to them instead of the wrong gods. If you only want to talk about Gods, that's fine, but you have no authority to say lesser superhumanly powerful immortal beings don't count as gods. 

Also, regarding the gods of clay and justice, even the claim isn't there anywhere, no one ever made it his life's purpose to preach for the god of clay, therefore,  a fortiori, the god of clay didn't send anyone . So we can rest assured that, even if these gods existed, they didn't want us to find out, and we shouldn't concern ourselves with them. The versions of God for which there is at least a claim, that is, messengers or revelations making extraordinary assertions, are a good starting point.

Prometheus and Dike were worshipped by the Greeks of antiquity. Prometheus formed humans from clay and gave them the gift of fire stolen from the gods. Zeus had him tortured horrifically for the latter. Dike, daughter of Athena, was the personification of justice, the spirit of moral order, and fair judgment. Presumably she doesn't fault us for not worshiping her as long as we don't better, after all, that would be unjust.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, she was a wargod, too...and she actually might slap a merc in the mouth for not worshipping her. Personification of justice, but it was greek justice. The same justice that favored odysseus even as he was punished for an act deemed an insult to the divine.

The anti-theistic undercurrent of greek mythology has never escaped notice. The gods are petty, cruel, and unreliable. Rolling disasters in progress that destroy humans whether they're friend or foe, whether they intend to or not. Regarded by greeks not at all unlike their hypothetical existence was addressed by Confucius - if there are gods and spirits, it's best to stay away from them.

[Mister Agenda]

Fortunately Kevin Sorbo and Lucy Lawless showed up to set 'em straight.

[brewer]

I didn't pick the attributes of God in Islam, nor did any other Muslim or Christian or Jew, and thus, at least for major religions, God is not that open to imagination.

We know that you didn't choose the attributes, but humans did. Your god is completely made from imagination of the human mind, the same as any other god.

Your god is nothing special or unique. You've not provided anything that in any way would make me think different.

[Abaddon_ire]

I didn't pick the attributes of God in Islam, nor did any other Muslim or Christian or Jew, and thus, at least for major religions, God is not that open to imagination.

We know that you didn't choose the attributes, but humans did. Your god is completely made from imagination of the human mind, the same as any other god.

Your god is nothing special or unique. You've not provided anything that in any way would make me think different.

Oh it's worse. K didn't make it up, somebody else did. K is merely a follower, not a thinker. K will unthinkingly do as instructed.

[GUBU]

I have a never-ending stream of moral objections to the abrahamic cults.  There's so much horrid shit in all of your religions that I can't co-sign on them regardless of whether or not your gods exist.

Bring it on and pick your most vicious moral objection regarding Islam

It forces you to commit immoral acts to appease an imaginary being.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Well, she was a wargod, too...and she actually might slap a merc in the mouth for not worshipping her.  Personification of justice, but it was greek justice.  The same justice that favored odysseus even as he was punished for an act deemed an insult to the divine.  

The anti-theistic undercurrent of greek mythology has never escaped notice.  The gods are petty, cruel, and unreliable.  Rolling disasters in progress that destroy humans whether they're friend or foe, whether they intend to or not.  Regarded by greeks not at all unlike their hypothetical existence was addressed by Confucius - if there are gods and spirits, it's best to stay away from them.

Nanny Ogg: ‘But Esme, there ARE gods.’

Granny Weatherwax: ‘That’s no call to go believing in ‘em.’  -  Terry Pratchet, ‘Lords And Ladies’

Boru

[R00tKiT]

I'm obviously not hearing anything that I want to hear...what with what I'm hearing being the reason I couldn't be a member of your club.  I really don't need a stronger case for why I do or don't join any club. 

Your club says things I can't co-sign, therefore I'm not interested in being in your club.  This can't be hard to understand. 

You do need a stronger case when you call someone whose even sleep position is imitated by millions of people, a child molester. But you didn't go further than simple name calling when asked about a justification.

I'm the judge and jury over whether or not I can join a club, and why, Kloro.  Your founder was evil and your religion is morally abhorrent.  Not objective enough?  What would be, you tell me. 

How is calling someone evil and walking away objective? Define evil within your moral system. That's a very difficult challenge already, I think.

@Klorophyll

Why should I believe a god exists? What are the reasons that should persuade me, or any other rational adult?

I think what we know so far about the universe being tuned for us, makes anyone who claims we came here by chance absolutey dishonest. If I remember correctly, you already seem to agree that something can't come from nothing. Since we are mortal beings, and there has to be always something, doesn't that warrant then an eternal cause, at least, whose properties can be inferred from its effects?

Prometheus and Dike were worshipped by the Greeks of antiquity. Prometheus formed humans from clay and gave them the gift of fire stolen from the gods. Zeus had him tortured horrifically for the latter. Dike, daughter of Athena, was the personification of justice, the spirit of moral order, and fair judgment. Presumably she doesn't fault us for not worshiping her as long as we don't better, after all, that would be unjust.

I see you're cherrypicking what you answer to. Anyway, your Prometheus story doesn't solve the problem, I really don't think there was a Greek messenger preaching Prometheus' message wholeheartedly, like Muhammad did, for example. If the Greek Gods didn't send anyone, nor left a revelation, nor performed miracles witnessed by crowds of people, then they are fictitious, and the Greeks were wrong.

Greek gods aside, did Muhammad exist historically according to you? And did he willingly fake his prophecy, or was he convinced by some epileptic disease that he sees angels and stuff ?

---

We know that you didn't choose the attributes, but humans did. Your god is completely made from imagination of the human mind, the same as any other god.

Your god is nothing special or unique. You've not provided anything that in any way would make me think different.

How is "special or unique" even relevant? This is actually the problem with any atheist or skeptic, they stopped being impressed or wondered, every thought about God becomes ordinary, therefore false, in their eyes.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm obviously not hearing anything that I want to hear...what with what I'm hearing being the reason I couldn't be a member of your club.  I really don't need a stronger case for why I do or don't join any club. 

Your club says things I can't co-sign, therefore I'm not interested in being in your club.  This can't be hard to understand. 

You do need a stronger case when you call someone whose even sleep position is imitated by millions of people, a child molester. But you didn't go further than simple name calling when asked about a justification.

I really don't....but that's a wonderfully strange detail to add.  So what if millions of people wanna sleep like Mo?  I don't.  

I'm the judge and jury over whether or not I can join a club, and why, Kloro.  Your founder was evil and your religion is morally abhorrent.  Not objective enough?  What would be, you tell me. 

How is calling someone evil and walking away objective? Define evil within your moral system. That's a very difficult challenge already, I think.

Not really, and..ultimately, it doesn't matter how evil is defined in my system.   I'm only telling you that because, in my system, your cult founder and your religion are evil...I...a person of good moral character, am not and cannot be interested in joining your club.  Like I said, an unwinnable soul.  It's worth thinking about if you make a habit of arguing with atheists or proselytizing for your faith.

Proving the existence of your god..which you cannot do, and even the actual existence of your god..risible...wouldn't be enough to convert someone to islam.  All of your work would still be ahead of you.

[brewer]

We know that you didn't choose the attributes, but humans did. Your god is completely made from imagination of the human mind, the same as any other god.

Your god is nothing special or unique. You've not provided anything that in any way would make me think different.

How is "special or unique" even relevant? This is actually the problem with any atheist or skeptic, they stopped being impressed or wondered, every thought about God becomes ordinary, therefore false, in their eyes.

You seem to be saying that your god is different. I'm telling you "it" is not different from any other god in history. They all came from the minds of humans. It is false because it has never existed except as a concept.

But you're to delusional to get it.