A possibly new perspective on this thing that we know as God.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Which god?? Thor? He got a big lump hammer, right? ; )

And Stormbreaker!

[Nay_Sayer]

I know God;

Omnipresent

All-Knowing

Flies

Resembles a mass of Spaghetti

Pronouns are Xim, Xe and Xis

What do I win op?

[EgoDeath]

Hi.

So the perspective that I have is that, we will never fully and completely know God.

The only way to know God is to know His names and attributes.

Even though the human being is an animal just like all other species, we are distinct because we have a divine reality.

The human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level, that's what makes us have dominion over the animal.

The names and attributes of God are basically all of the good qualities that is possible for the human being to have, it's just that society doesn't call them that.

The human being is the most perfect of all creation.

So, for the sake of total clarity, do you think we will never discover god? Or that we cannot discover god? Or is discover not the right word?

If you are talking about "knowing god" in the way that the religious mean it, I mean we first have to establish that a god exists in order for one to somehow have a relationship with that god.

Furthermore, even if a god did exist, how do you know it would be interested in having some kind of psychic relationship with you?

[unityconversation]

People exist, therefore god.  I guess that settles it.

If he is arguing that because humans are the only capable of having a concept of god then god exists.

There are many things we conceptualize, a cursory look at the nutbar internet proves this. There is a way to test concepts and demonstrate to others those concepts exist, e.g. semiconductor gate properties. Not so much about this "divine reality concept, or the concept of god for that matter.

But here is the the thing, we are animals as well, why are we the only species that have the ability to even
conceptualize God in the for place. We have been singled out of all the other animals to have, display, and manifest divine / spiritual reality to the physical world.

Look, what has happened to us was indeed
evolution, but here's the thing, this is more
that just mere physical evolution. We have
been singled out here. We are just "one" of
many species on earth. Many species of
animals do similar things, but it is only the
human animal that does the unique things
that's only to the human, such as reading,
having a technical articulated language,
and establishing science. And we have
been singled out to have dominion among
all other species.

Think about it just for a second, if
this was just mere physical evolution and
nothing more, then why are we doing out
of our caves, why aren't we still in them?

Why are we not doing just like all the other
species on earth and still be strictly
dwelling in the wild?

Who is us to try and come out of our caves
and start inventing things?

Who is us to try to build a tribe or city and
to establish the things of science?

Who is us to try an build civilizations
around the world and establish organized
governments in every country?

Who are we to not be mere animals, I
wonder?

---

Ok, and the human being itself is the "demonstration."

Human beings are a demonstration of human beings. Where is your demonstration of a god?

I just explain to you...

But if you disagree, that's fine

---

You said: "I dunno mate, not very convincing."

Ok, that's fine

You said: "Instead of being distinct because we have "divine reality" im fairly sure science says its because we have a conscious"

Well every animal has a conscious, that not distinctive.

You said: "I think you've tried to link our consciousness with God but failed."

Nope, not at all. Like I said all animals has consciousness, but it is only the human being has a divine nature and can manifest the qualities of God to the physical world.

Animals have a conscious now do they. Maybe in your mind but science disagrees. U should really look into that.

Human nature isn't divine at all, it's just human nature.

Can i ask where u got this argument from?

You don't agree that animals has a conscious? Aren't animals just physically alive as we are?

Ok, that's fine.

My replays is based off the divine teachings of the baha'i faith.

---

Only to you that you think that I'm failing because you think that I'm on some kind of mission, which I already told you I'm not.

I know you want physical evidence, but here's the thing, that you wil never have, because the divine reality is not anything physical, it can only be manifest to the physical world.

You are on a mission, If not you'd be talking to us about other things besides your religion of ignorance.

It's because divine reality is nothing more than a fantasy you've been taught by others. Insisting that the fantasy is real is delusion. All those attributes that you insist are gods, are simply human attributes. They have been made into "god attributes" by humans for manipulation purposes. You've been duped. 

It's not in the physical world but effects the physical world? What a bunch of horseshit. Next you'll be telling me the "it exists outside of time and space" dodge.

You said: "You are on a mission, If not you'd be talking to us about other things besides your religion of ignorance."

So in other words: don't come on this fourm talking to us about religion and spirituality?

You said: "It's because divine reality is nothing more than a fantasy you've been taught by others. Insisting that the fantasy is real is delusion. All those attributes that you insist are gods, are simply human attributes. They have been made into "god attributes" by humans for manipulation purposes. You've been duped."

Ok, that's fine.

You said: It's not in the physical world but effects the physical world? What a bunch of horseshit.

Well, doesn't the painter not live in the painting but still effects everything in the painting?

---

[

The good human qualities are things like:

Integrity
Courageousness
Honesty
Generosity
Loyalty
Perseverance
Respectfulness
Politeness
Responsibility
Kindness
Humility
Lovingness
Compassion
Optimism
Fairness
Reliability
Forgiveness
Conscientiousness
Authenticity
Self-discipline

I've seen all of these displayed by my cat.

If that were really true, then it would cease to be a cat.

---

Hi.

So the perspective that I have is that, we will never know God.

Not "completely," that is the core essence.

The best way to know God is to know the human reality.

---

[quote="Editz" pid='1960828' dateline='1583530080']
Which god?? Thor? He got a big lump hammer, right? ; )

The one true God that's usually known to have created the universe.

---

I know God;

Omnipresent

All-Knowing

Flies

Resembles a mass of Spaghetti

Pronouns are Xim, Xe and Xis

What do I win op?

Omnipresent and All-Knowing are wrong.

God is even far beyond those.

---

[quote='unityconversation' pid='1960524' dateline='1583437747']
Hi.

So the perspective that I have is that, we will never fully and completely know God.

The only way to know God is to know His names and attributes.

Even though the human being is an animal just like all other species, we are distinct because we have a divine reality.

The human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level, that's what makes us have dominion over the animal.

The names and attributes of God are basically all of the good qualities that is possible for the human being to have, it's just that society doesn't call them that.

The human being is the most perfect of all creation.

So, for the sake of total clarity, do you think we will never discover god? Or that we cannot discover god? Or is discover not the right word?

If you are talking about "knowing god" in the way that the religious mean it, I mean we first have to establish that a god exists in order for one to somehow have a relationship with that god.

Furthermore, even if a god did exist, how do you know it would be interested in having some kind of psychic relationship with you?

You said: "So, for the sake of total clarity, do you think we will never discover god"?

Yes, we actually discover God every day through human beings.

You said "I mean we first have to establish that a god exists in order for one to somehow have a relationship with that god."

We establish that God exists by listening to the divine teachings of the current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation.

You said: "Furthermore, even if a god did exist, how do you know it would be interested in having some kind of psychic relationship with you?"

Well as I said earlier God is beyond the physical universe and beyond anything that we know, so we will never know God completely, that is His core essence.
But by knowing the human reality, we can know a good number of things about God. And this is especially true with the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations.

Even though the common human being can display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level, there is a level beyond that.

The Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations can display the names and attributes to the physical world at the highest level "perfectly."

So the thing is, if you "really" want to know God, the "absolute" best way to do that is to know the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations.

Baha'u'llah says:

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the
transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven...
These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, they are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their
infallible grace and the sanctifying
breezes of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations."

[Abaddon_ire]

If that were really true, then it would cease to be a cat.

False.

Omnipresent and All-Knowing are wrong.

Can't be. Those were in your list of the attributes of god.

God is even far beyond those. If so, then your god must be all-knowing and omnipresent since you claim that he/she/it/housecat has moved beyond such attributes.

[quote='unityconversation' pid='1960967' dateline='1583618738']Yes, we actually discover God every day through human beings.

Human beings exist. Have you any evidence approaching the same level for the existence of any gods at all? Of course you don't.

You said "I mean we first have to establish that a god exists in order for one to somehow have a relationship with that god."

We establish that God exists by listening to the divine teachings of the current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation.

How do you select among the many claimed representatives of god? What criteria do you use to choose one and dismiss another?

You said: "Furthermore, even if a god did exist, how do you know it would be interested in having some kind of psychic relationship with you?"

Well as I said earlier God is beyond the physical universe and beyond anything that we know, so we will never know God completely, that is His core essence.
But by knowing the human reality, we can know a good number of things about God. And this is especially true with the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations.

Another unevidenced claim. Can you provide a single verifiable example of ANYTHING beyond space and time?

Even though the common human being can display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level, there is a level beyond that.

If any human can display all of the names and attributes of god, then any human can be a god. All it takes is the will of a single man. If true, your definition of god becomes moot. Anyone can become a god.

The Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations can display the names and attributes to the physical world at the highest level "perfectly."

You already claimed that your prophets do NOT perfectly describe anything. Make up your mind.

So the thing is, if you "really" want to know God, the "absolute" best way to do that is to know the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations.

And how do you identify the true prophets from the false ones? There are countless thousands of so-called prophets.

Baha'u'llah says:

"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the
transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven...
These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, they are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their
infallible grace and the sanctifying
breezes of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations."

And that is a load of meaningless bovine fecal matter. That dreck is advocating that this universe we inhabit is merely a doormat upon which to wipe our feet before entering a far better place. In effect, you are advocating suicide as a short cut to paradise.

That is what the Heavens Gate cult actually did. And Jim Jones. And David Koresh. And countless others like Andrea Yates. She drowned her five kids so that they would go straight to heaven. She "knew" that hell was in store for her for such an act. But was willing to sacrifice herself so that her children would get a free pass into heaven having not had an opportunity to sin in this world. And according to the logic of religion, she was exactly right. Those poor dead children go directly to heaven. She goes to hell. She sacrificed herself for love of her children because religion.

Then you have the Schaibles. In 2009, their son Kent Schaible died of pneumonia because they refused to attend a physician, preferring to pray over him. The child died a horrible preventable death. They were convisted of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 10 years probation with a condition that in the event of illness in any of their other children, medical care MUST be sought. Nevertheless, when their son Brandon Schaible fell ill at the age 8 months, they once again insisted on prayer as the cure and the kid died.

And the death toll goes on.


All of it caused by irrational religious belief.

Yet here you are touting yet another irrational religious belief claiming the very same thing. Why would anyone believe your wild assertions above any other wild claim? You provide no evidence, merely endless assertions. Were I or anyone to follow your modus operandi we could assert that the entire universe was created by a race of magic unicorns that exist outside space and time. And you could not prove us wrong. Although you are welcome to try.

[Mr Greene]

Well there's a comprehensive demonstration of the regressive nature of religion.

[GUBU]

@unityconversation Hello again Unity.

I see that your attempt at conversion is not going so well. I'm not sure what you expected. If you want me, as an atheist, to validate any part of your "conversation" as accurate or part of reality (except as a mental construct) then you will be disappointed. All I hear is you regurgitating what you have been programmed by religion to say. Do you understand that after your mental concept/construct (fantasy) has have been challenged, repeating yourself is not helping your position at all? I guess I shouldn't expect much else, religion does not like independent thought.

Humans are special because we can imagine a god = divine reality, got it. Now demonstrate that imagining a god means anything other than humans have the ability to imagine things.

I'm OK with you having a religion. What I'm not OK with is your attempt to get me to believe. As far as I'm concerned your religion is simply a mental crutch and a means for humans to manipulate other humans (good or bad, sometimes both).

BTW, I'm pretty sure my dog considers me a god. How's that for divine reality?

Oh, if you ask me I think that it's going well. What, you think that I've come here to try and convert you all? Then you've basically misunderstood why I came here.

Then why are you trying so hard to convert us?

I cut the rest of your post because it is meaningless bullshit.

---

What is a divine, spiritual thing? What is it made of? If it’s not material, how could you possibly demonstrate it exists?

When we talk about divine / spiritual things we're just talking about things that are beyond the physical reality.

The divine reality is not made of anything material.

What I keep trying to explain is that the best demonstration of the divine reality and of God is the human being itself because we can manifest the divine names and attributes of God to the physical world .

Let me explain it like this:

You know how in the bible it says that God created the human in His image. We what that really meant is that  the human being can display the attributes of God. For instance, we all heard of the will of God right, well guess what we have a will as well. You heard of God being the creator right, well guess what, we are creators as well, ect.

The definition of evidence is:

"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid".

And the "information" that's in the divine teachings of the baha'i scriptures are "indicating" that the proof of the reality of God is the names and attributes that only the human being can display.

No lad, baseless assertions are still not evidence. Now start providing some evidence for your assertions.

---

Hi.

So the perspective that I have is that, we will never fully and completely know God.

The only way to know God is to know His names and attributes.

Even though the human being is an animal just like all other species, we are distinct because we have a divine reality.

The human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level, that's what makes us have dominion over the animal.

The names and attributes of God are basically all of the good qualities that is possible for the human being to have, it's just that society doesn't call them that.

The human being is the most perfect of all creation.

I dunno mate, not very convincing. 

Instead of being distinct because we have "divine reality" im fairly sure science says its because we have a conscious

I think uve tried to link our consciousness with God but failed. There are explanations that make it possible in my eyes

Your explanation needs refining, to put it kindly

Oh great, another episode of "when idiots try having an intellectual argument".

[Fake Messiah]

Can animals even be "optimistic?" I've never known an animal to be that. I know that animals can be fond of someone, but I don't know about optimism. But I don't know I could be wrong.

The definition optimistic is: hopeful and confident about the future.

How can an animal show that it is "hopeful and confident about the future" so the human being can know?

Yeah, if you don't know something why should you research it? Especially since it can show that you are wrong

[The Grand Nudger]

First it was people exist, therefore god.  Now it's people build houses, therefore god.....................  

This thing that has you amazed, amazed enough to think it amounts to a reason to believe in gods..actually is amazing.  It's just that it's a human story, completely explicable by reference to human beings and human actions.  If thoughts like those have the ability to capture your imagination, then you need to put down the fairy tales and pick up a few books on anthropology and archaeology.

They would explain, for example, that human beings "moved out of caves" as a consequence of the growth of woody shrubs and long grasses that advanced as glaciers retreated - coinciding with a population boom, and the need to find new sources of food as megafauna declined.  It would not have been possible for us to make shelters without these new resources and there was no need to make new shelters so long as the ones we had could hold us and were near food.  Following that change in circumstance, human shelter has always been an issue of making some hollow form that people can fit inside.  Whether that's piling up blocks of ice into an igloo, or mixing thatch with clay, or shit-based wattle and daubs with a pile of grass for a hat.  Hell, even when we were taking what we found in a cave...we built walls and corridors to manage draft and security.

God's aren't interested in building shelters, let alone a house.  The millions of years that man lived without them and the millions of people who still do establish this point, at least.  Our first shelter was the skin of other animals, skins that that we wore..untanned and unstiched....until they rotted away and we needed a new one. We're 2.5 million years old.  We lived in caves (and just out in the open) until about 100k years ago.  We only managed to become fully modern 50k years ago.  The oldest houses we know of are from a scant 2.8k years ago.  It was a long slog, and I'm sure that human beings would have welcomed any divine intervention at every point along the way, particularly as we watched our children die from exposure even when they were inside of our shelters. Just as often, we watched them die due to some fact of the construction of our shelters. Still do. We've reached the point today where the construction of our shelters has become an existential threat to our species, even.

How positively di-vine!

Obviously, nothing up above really concerns your god beliefs.  By all means, continue talking about your imaginary friend...I only hope to show you how the reasons you're offering are non-starters.  You do your religion and your god no favors with this sort of stuff.

[Foxaèr]

Hi.

So the perspective that I have is that, we will never fully and completely know God.

The only way to know God is to know His names and attributes.

Even though the human being is an animal just like all other species, we are distinct because we have a divine reality.

The human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level, that's what makes us have dominion over the animal.

The names and attributes of God are basically all of the good qualities that is possible for the human being to have, it's just that society doesn't call them that.

The human being is the most perfect of all creation.

There is just too much wrong in this OP, and I'm certain other members have already covered it.

However......

I figure if you can never fully know something you might as well stop attributing knowledge based concepts and characteristics to it. Why even claim to know what god wants for us when you cannot properly understand god?

I am divine, I cannot argue there.

If you think the human being is a perfect creation, you clearly have never studied human anatomy and physiology. There is nothing perfect about us. Except for me, because I'm divine.