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Does humanity deserve Corona?
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 27, 2020 at 7:39 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: Yes, Barbary Corsairs ultimately made European occupation of North African ports inevitable

"Inevitable" from whose perspective? 

Quote:, the depredations of Arabian pirates forced all non-Islamic trade from Indian Ocean till Da Gama presented them with something they couldn't contend with and slaving in sub-Saharan Africa was the basis of the wealth of Zanzibar. It was Islamic ports that sold slaves to the Spanish starting the Transatlantic slave trade.

The US was built by slaves on land stolen from natives. 

Is there some reason you're pointing to horrible things done by Muslims, and not by others?
Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 27, 2020 at 7:54 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(March 27, 2020 at 7:39 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: Yes, Barbary Corsairs ultimately made European occupation of North African ports inevitable

"Inevitable" from whose perspective? 

Quote:, the depredations of Arabian pirates forced all non-Islamic trade from Indian Ocean till Da Gama presented them with something they couldn't contend with and slaving in sub-Saharan Africa was the basis of the wealth of Zanzibar. It was Islamic ports that sold slaves to the Spanish starting the Transatlantic slave trade.

The US was built by slaves on land stolen from natives. 

Is there some reason you're pointing to horrible things done by Muslims, and not by others?

Inevitable from the perspective of Europeans who strangely viewed attacks and slave raiding against their coasts as not peaceful.

Slaves bought from Islamic ports. 

The OP thinks this plague is due to our not accepting this Islamic golden age and the 'glorious' Ottoman Empire as the dominant world power.
Weren't you paying attention?
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 27, 2020 at 8:02 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: Inevitable from the perspective of Europeans

Right.

Quote: who strangely viewed attacks and slave raiding against their coasts as not peaceful.

Violence of one country against another is generally viewed as not peaceful. What I've been talking about is how it's not only Muslims who are guilty of this. 

Quote:Slaves bought from Islamic ports. 

The law of supply and demand.

Quote:The OP thinks this plague is due to our not accepting this Islamic golden age and the 'glorious' Ottoman Empire as the dominant world power.

Is that what he thinks, really? He has recently said that powerful governments generally don't follow real Islamic principles. Has he argued that the Ottoman Empire was good? Please provide a direct quotation or link.

He seems to be saying that all humanity is pretty bad, not only non-Muslims. But he can clarify if he wants. 

Quote:Weren't you paying attention?

Earlier you asserted that there is something unique about the financial practices of governments and banks in majority-Muslim countries that prevents them from being economically successful. As the only example you offered, you said that they can't charge or pay interest. Now that assertion has been disproved. Your own link earlier today disproved it, because it said that banks which pretend to be Sharia-compliant are actually charging interest. 

I was paying attention enough to see that. I know that on the Internet nobody says, "oops I was wrong," but that was a pretty clear example. 

Now you have changed the subject to say that Muslim countries in history have been as violent and aggressive as non-Muslim countries. As far as I can see, this supports the OP's feeling that people have a tendency to behave badly.
Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 27, 2020 at 8:24 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
Quote:The OP thinks this plague is due to our not accepting this Islamic golden age and the 'glorious' Ottoman Empire as the dominant world power.

Is that what he thinks, really? He has recently said that powerful governments generally don't follow real Islamic principles. Has he argued that the Ottoman Empire was good? Please provide a direct quotation or link.

He seems to be saying that all humanity is pretty bad, not only non-Muslims. But he can clarify if he wants. 

He mourns the passing of the Ottoman Empire, despises the Arabs who overthrew it and wishes to return to the 'Caliphate' which (according to him) should have total domination of the globe.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 27, 2020 at 8:52 pm)Mr Greene Wrote:
(March 27, 2020 at 8:24 pm)Belacqua Wrote: Is that what he thinks, really? He has recently said that powerful governments generally don't follow real Islamic principles. Has he argued that the Ottoman Empire was good? Please provide a direct quotation or link.

He seems to be saying that all humanity is pretty bad, not only non-Muslims. But he can clarify if he wants. 

He mourns the passing of the Ottoman Empire, despises the Arabs who overthrew it and wishes to return to the 'Caliphate' which (according to him) should have total domination of the globe.

Is that right? I think I'll wait for him to confirm.

Your own record on this thread doesn't give me confidence that you are correctly presenting his position.

Just now I did a search for the word "Ottoman" on this forum. I looked at about 30 of his posts. None of them says what you attribute to him, though there are a lot and I didn't see all of them.

This is one that I found:

Quote:Islam has no command center or a single leader; since the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War 1, Muslims have been a defeated nation that holds so much anger alongside the bitterness of defeat. Nobody is more broken than a Muslim if you studied us carefully. It's an inferiority complex in its purest form: and inferiority complexes are usually masked by a thick layer of superiority complex.

This appears to be true, as far as I know. The Ottoman Empire was the last time a self-identified Muslim country had that much power -- though it was a long time in decline. In terms of international power politics, the non-Muslim countries have taken over the role of doing evil things to weaker countries. Personally I think it wouldn't be possible or desirable to go backwards, and advocating that one empire conquer another isn't going to be an improvement. But I'll let WinterHold speak for himself.

Anyway, if we change the subject again it will take us away from the topics I've been addressing. It won't help your argument to do a Gish Gallop and avoid the fact that Muslim countries for a long time have been oppressed by more powerful countries, and that a great deal of their economic troubles come from imperial politics. It is not primarily a religious issue.
Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
But make sure to use renwable Chakras, the CO2 footprint of those things!

(March 26, 2020 at 10:21 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:
(March 26, 2020 at 7:28 pm)Alex K Wrote: Not you personally
Your generation and the 20 years before you (on average) were the first in the history of mankind, and probably the last, whose lives were powered basically entirely by fossil fuels. White men >40 are voting fascists back into power worldwide because they are worried about their manly manhood.

Moving to fossil fuels was the next step.  I mean, were we going to keep cooking over wood fires and traveling in horse drawn or steam powered vehicles?  We should have been moving on to finding and utilizing the next step but humanity isn't always all that farsighted.

My aging hippie self spent a life trying to raise three responsible, reasonable adults (two out of three isn't bad) while scraping together a way to feed, house, and clothe said kids without an advanced education but a willingness to learn and a knack for bookkeeping.  

I will grudgingly accept that you clarified by pointing the finger at males of a certain age...I have lived long enough in the American south to know all about 'the good ole boy network'.

I'll run along now and tie dye something or align some chakras.   Hmph
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 27, 2020 at 9:14 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(March 27, 2020 at 8:52 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: He mourns the passing of the Ottoman Empire, despises the Arabs who overthrew it and wishes to return to the 'Caliphate' which (according to him) should have total domination of the globe.

Is that right? I think I'll wait for him to confirm.

Your own record on this thread doesn't give me confidence that you are correctly presenting his position.

Just now I did a search for the word "Ottoman" on this forum. I looked at about 30 of his posts. None of them says what you attribute to him, though there are a lot and I didn't see all of them.

This is one that I found:

Quote:Islam has no command center or a single leader; since the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War 1, Muslims have been a defeated nation that holds so much anger alongside the bitterness of defeat. Nobody is more broken than a Muslim if you studied us carefully. It's an inferiority complex in its purest form: and inferiority complexes are usually masked by a thick layer of superiority complex.

This appears to be true, as far as I know. The Ottoman Empire was the last time a self-identified Muslim country had that much power -- though it was a long time in decline. In terms of international power politics, the non-Muslim countries have taken over the role of doing evil things to weaker countries. Personally I think it wouldn't be possible or desirable to go backwards, and advocating that one empire conquer another isn't going to be an improvement. But I'll let WinterHold speak for himself.

Anyway, if we change the subject again it will take us away from the topics I've been addressing. It won't help your argument to do a Gish Gallop and avoid the fact that Muslim countries for a long time have been oppressed by more powerful countries, and that a great deal of their economic troubles come from imperial politics. It is not primarily a religious issue.

You should have tried searching for his views on a global Caliphate, that has been the most jarring change in his outlook since I returned to the forum. 
His views regarding the Arabs usually surface when he's ranting about the Saudis.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 28, 2020 at 4:14 am)Mr Greene Wrote: You should have tried searching for his views on a global Caliphate, that has been the most jarring change in his outlook since I returned to the forum. 
His views regarding the Arabs usually surface when he's ranting about the Saudis.

I'll wait and see what he says. So far I've only seen him say that because Muslim countries have been subjugated by more powerful imperial and colonial powers for a long time, people in the subjugated countries have developed an inferiority complex. It makes sense to me that when my country and others treat whole regions of the world as pawns with resources to be stolen, it would have long-lasting psychological effects. I had never thought of it that way before, so I learned something. 

If he wants a powerful Muslim country in order to counter the evil done by my own country, that would be understandable. Personally I don't see that as leading to peace, but it's not for an American to say that they should disarm before we do.

People like us -- from those powerful countries -- should acknowledge that imperial influences have long term negative effects. If we try to downplay the obvious historical causes of poverty and lack of development in the subjugated countries and blame it on their religion, we are giving our own countries a pass that we don't deserve.

But I'm not here to pass judgment on individual posters -- I prefer to talk about history and philosophy, and people who disagree with me can help me to formulate my own ideas more fully.
Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 27, 2020 at 8:52 pm)Mr Greene Wrote:
(March 27, 2020 at 8:24 pm)Belacqua Wrote: Is that what he thinks, really? He has recently said that powerful governments generally don't follow real Islamic principles. Has he argued that the Ottoman Empire was good? Please provide a direct quotation or link.

He seems to be saying that all humanity is pretty bad, not only non-Muslims. But he can clarify if he wants. 

He mourns the passing of the Ottoman Empire, despises the Arabs who overthrew it and wishes to return to the 'Caliphate' which (according to him) should have total domination of the globe.

Liar.

Next is the evidence from my past posts:

1-

Quote:https://atheistforums.org/thread-60167-p...pid1948928

AtlasS33 -now WinterHold- said:

The Ottoman empire's final days were brutal on the non-Turks, especially Arabs. No wonder the Ottomans saw many revolts from the natives of Arabia -and most of the Muslim world-; revolts that allowed the British Empire to take so many of the region's land.

The lesson though is never learnt; that before decline empires start to massacre and genocide.

2-

Quote:https://atheistforums.org/thread-59828-p...pid1936203

AtlasS33 -now WinterHold- said:

Muslim history is being dumped underground, and ignoring the existence of Muslims is widespread, it even reached the degree of demonizing Muslim civilizations like the Ottoman civilization without any shame; forgetting real grand demons like HItler, Vlad and the Crusaders

3-

Quote:https://atheistforums.org/thread-59474-p...pid1925512

AtlasS33 -now WinterHold- said:

The Spanish emptied America of its natives; the British were less ruthless and met a far greater resistance in the Ottoman land. The oppression and massacre against Muslims reached the level of occupying Palestine by Britain and carrying out an ethnic change to the natives of the land. It's a timebomb designed,created, and set to blow by Britain; not by Muslim inner fighting.


4-

Quote:https://atheistforums.org/thread-55285-p...pid1774912

AtlasS33 -now WinterHold- said

Wake up, Fatal Frame 338. Britain engineered the whole Arab World, and the Israeli-Arab conflict with it. It was more of a "spiky anal-beads" in the butt of the ruins of the Ottoman empire; one anal-bead designed to hurt for a long time. A landmine so the region always stay in turmoil.

5-
Quote:https://atheistforums.org/thread-54806-p...pid1752539

AtlasS33 -now WinterHold- said

You have a point.

Until this moment; I couldn't find a justification for the invasion of Spain that took place in the early Islamic age. Which began all of this.

6-

Quote:https://atheistforums.org/thread-53299-p...pid1699522

AtlasS33 -now WinterHold- said

Big Ew. Ottoman Turkish Sultans injected lots of savage habits. Countries in the Middle East, that followed the Turks once, have so many disgusting cultural habits and norms. During the 1st Jan revolution in Egypt; the Egyptian army turned very Ottoman and bashed female protestors with not just bullets and batons, but with things like this also:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/m...nity-tests
[url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/11/egypt-doctor-cleared-virginity-tests][/url]
7-

Quote:https://atheistforums.org/thread-53299-p...pid1699522

AtlasS33 -now WinterHold- said

Of course; according to the culture; if the female protestors aren't "virgins"; then they are "whore" and their revolution is mere "riot with no goal."
History spoke about the Ottoman "Harems" too; so... In Saudi Arabia, they call women "Horma". It means "Forbidden" or "sanctity".

It's a cultural fail. These women weren't asked before being "sex toys" for the Sultan. Maybe that's why the Ottoman were so hated, and things like this made them fall.

I also heard about this "losing virginity is painful for women" rumor. All of this, is to keep women afraid of sex, and to prevent young girls from "shaming the family" by having sex without marriage.

-------------------

This person is a liar who spreads lies against me, I don't know his goal or what he wants.

@Belaqua  : read this please

(March 28, 2020 at 4:39 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(March 28, 2020 at 4:14 am)Mr Greene Wrote: You should have tried searching for his views on a global Caliphate, that has been the most jarring change in his outlook since I returned to the forum. 
His views regarding the Arabs usually surface when he's ranting about the Saudis.

I'll wait and see what he says. So far I've only seen him say that because Muslim countries have been subjugated by more powerful imperial and colonial powers for a long time, people in the subjugated countries have developed an inferiority complex. It makes sense to me that when my country and others treat whole regions of the world as pawns with resources to be stolen, it would have long-lasting psychological effects. I had never thought of it that way before, so I learned something. 

If he wants a powerful Muslim country in order to counter the evil done by my own country, that would be understandable. Personally I don't see that as leading to peace, but it's not for an American to say that they should disarm before we do.

People like us -- from those powerful countries -- should acknowledge that imperial influences have long term negative effects. If we try to downplay the obvious historical causes of poverty and lack of development in the subjugated countries and blame it on their religion, we are giving our own countries a pass that we don't deserve.

But I'm not here to pass judgment on individual posters -- I prefer to talk about history and philosophy, and people who disagree with me can help me to formulate my own ideas more fully.

A place where the true meanings of the Quran are practiced -under a mass voting on the meanings- is what I seek.
Just like in the times of Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him.

Not a totalitarian dictatorship like the Ottoman empire.
Reply
RE: Does humanity deserve Corona?
(March 28, 2020 at 5:26 am)WinterHold Wrote: A place where the true meanings of the Quran are practiced -under a mass voting on the meanings- is what I seek.
Just like in the times of Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him.

Not a totalitarian dictatorship like the Ottoman empire.

Sounds awful.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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