Ketogenic Diets against Epilepsy

[Succubus#2]

It’s used to treat children with seizure disorders who don’t respond to medication, and it has been demonstrated to be effective.

"Demonstrated" really isn't a word commonly used in science, since science usually doesn't deal with absolute certainty. And, when it comes to claims such as a diet being capable of treating some disease, I don't think you can even reach reasonable certainty.

Trolling your own thread? She didn't say that!

[brewer]

“Demonstrated” is absolutely a word used in science, and it’s not synonymous with “absolute certainty.” Anyway, why did you ask the question if you don’t like the answer?

Some people just want to be agreed with, I reckon.

Boru

Echo echo echo echo echo .............

[FlatAssembler]

"Demonstrated" really isn't a word commonly used in science, since science usually doesn't deal with absolute certainty. And, when it comes to claims such as a diet being capable of treating some disease, I don't think you can even reach reasonable certainty.

“Demonstrated” is absolutely a word used in science, and it’s not synonymous with “absolute certainty.” Anyway, why did you ask the question if you don’t like the answer?

I am sorry, what does demonstrate mean? In Croatian, demonstrirati is usually used in reference to mathematical proofs, proofs of the theorems from axioms. And you sound a bit uninformed if you use it in some other science.

---

"Demonstrated" really isn't a word commonly used in science, since science usually doesn't deal with absolute certainty. And, when it comes to claims such as a diet being capable of treating some disease, I don't think you can even reach reasonable certainty.
Well, yeah, fasting (which has similar physiological effects to ketogenic diet) has been recommended as a treatment for epilepsy since ancient times. But, guess what, so has bloodletting. Bloodletting has been used to treat various illnesses (including anaemia) for thousands of years, yet we now know it was, in best cases, a way to alleviate the symptoms without treating the underline cause, and, in most of the cases, it was actually counter-productive.

The chief difference is that bloodletting doesn’t work, ketosis does.

But it isn’t as if physicians are recommending ketogenic diets to all of their epileptic patients. A solid majority respond well to meds, about 30% do not. For these people, the diet is shown to work for the majority of them and to work very well.

Boru

I'd argue ketosis and bloodletting are remarkably similar. Both of them appear to sometimes alleviate the symptoms, yet there is no scientific explanation for how they could possibly work. And both of them have side-effects effects even more obvious than the effects.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

“Demonstrated” is absolutely a word used in science, and it’s not synonymous with “absolute certainty.” Anyway, why did you ask the question if you don’t like the answer?

I am sorry, what does demonstrate mean? In Croatian, demonstrirati is usually used in reference to mathematical proofs, proofs of the theorems from axioms. And you sound a bit uninformed if you use it in some other science.

---

The chief difference is that bloodletting doesn’t work, ketosis does.

But it isn’t as if physicians are recommending ketogenic diets to all of their epileptic patients. A solid majority respond well to meds, about 30% do not. For these people, the diet is shown to work for the majority of them and to work very well.

Boru

I'd argue ketosis and bloodletting are remarkably similar. Both of them appear to sometimes alleviate the symptoms, yet there is no scientific explanation for how they could possibly work. And both of them have side-effects effects even more obvious than the effects.

There are actually several potential explanations as to how the diet works. And it seems unarguable that it DOES work. Does it cure epilepsy? No. Does it reduce the frequency and severity of seizures? Absolutely.

You really believe that moderate weight loss and lethargy are ‘even more obvious’ than a grand mal seizure? 

Anyroad, have a butcher's at this: 


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6361831/

Boru

[FlatAssembler]

There are actually several potential explanations as to how the diet works.

And those proposed explanations are usually that ketone bodies have anti-convulsion properties or that low-blood sugar helps against epilepsy. Well, low-blood sugar helping against epilepsy is clearly wrong, since giving people insulin doesn't help against epilepsy any better than placebo. As for ketone bodies, well, drugs that make the liver produce more ketone bodies don't work on animals against epilepsy, and there is no reason to think they will work on humans.
If there's anything to it, it's much more likely due to reasons unrelated to low blood sugar or ketosis, like some form of protein in some edible plants (other than avocados and coconuts) leading to an allergic reaction leading to seizures in some people.

Does it reduce the frequency and severity of seizures? Absolutely.

So does placebo. The question is whether they do it better than placebo.

---

Also, increasing the risk of kidney stones by 10 times or so is a mild side-effect according to you?

[LadyForCamus]

“Demonstrated” is absolutely a word used in science, and it’s not synonymous with “absolute certainty.” Anyway, why did you ask the question if you don’t like the answer?

I am sorry, what does demonstrate mean? In Croatian, demonstrirati is usually used in reference to mathematical proofs, proofs of the theorems from axioms. And you sound a bit uninformed if you use it in some other science.

dem·on·strate

1. give a practical exhibition and explanation of (how a machine, skill, or craft works or is performed).

2. show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence.

Uninformed? I’m a registered dietitian with considerable experience in medical nutrition therapy. What are your qualifications and expertise on the subject?

“Recent studies have found a significantly positive outcome with the use of the KD for treatment of refractory epilepsy in children and adults.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6361831/

[LadyForCamus]

I am sorry, what does demonstrate mean? In Croatian, demonstrirati is usually used in reference to mathematical proofs, proofs of the theorems from axioms. And you sound a bit uninformed if you use it in some other science.

---

I'd argue ketosis and bloodletting are remarkably similar. Both of them appear to sometimes alleviate the symptoms, yet there is no scientific explanation for how they could possibly work. And both of them have side-effects effects even more obvious than the effects.

There are actually several potential explanations as to how the diet works. And it seems unarguable that it DOES work. Does it cure epilepsy? No. Does it reduce the frequency and severity of seizures? Absolutely.

You really believe that moderate weight loss and lethargy are ‘even more obvious’ than a grand mal seizure? 

Anyroad, have a butcher's at this: 


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6361831/

Boru

Just linked to the same one, lol. *high five*

[LadyForCamus]

@FlatAssembler

As for ketone bodies, well, drugs that make the liver produce more ketone bodies don't work on animals against epilepsy, and there is no reason to think they will work on humans.

And yet, the diet works, lol. An incomplete picture of the mechanism of action of a particular treatment is not any kind of argument or evidence against its demonstrable efficacy.

If there's anything to it, it's much more likely due to reasons unrelated to low blood sugar or ketosis, like some form of protein in some edible plants (other than avocados and coconuts) leading to an allergic reaction leading to seizures in some people.

How did you determine what is “more likely” here? Show your work.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@FlatAssembler

As for ketone bodies, well, drugs that make the liver produce more ketone bodies don't work on animals against epilepsy, and there is no reason to think they will work on humans.

And yet, the diet works, lol. An incomplete picture of the mechanism of action of a particular treatment is not any kind of argument or evidence against its demonstrable efficacy.

If there's anything to it, it's much more likely due to reasons unrelated to low blood sugar or ketosis, like some form of protein in some edible plants (other than avocados and coconuts) leading to an allergic reaction leading to seizures in some people.

How did you determine what is “more likely” here? Show your work.

That occurred to me as well. I find it kind of intellectually perverse for Fiat to so roundly reject something that obviously works, because we’re not yet sure of the actual mechanism.

We know the diets work across all age groups. We know what the side effects are and how to manage them. We know that people’s live are being improved at low risk and low cost, but Fiat seems to want to reject this method out of hand. Why?  

Boru

[Rhizomorph13]

I thought his name was Flatassembler, like he likes to assemble flat things.