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Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
#11
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 26, 2020 at 2:55 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(July 26, 2020 at 2:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Jesus was not a jewish rabbi.  The character in magic book says whatever it's cultists wanted it to say.  That's how characters in magic books work.

In the broadest sense, he was (at least as depicted in the narrative). All Jewish men are rabbis.

Boru

He certainly isn't depicted as a rabbi in magic book.  

He's depicted as a demi-god set in opposition to nascent rabbinical tradition, that had become corrupt and stagnant - much like the world, providing the narrative and theological necessity of a new revelation, a new religion.  

Similarly, we've got Greatest I am re-imagining what some other non existent jesus would say about vicarious redemption - which is absurd.  The character in magic book establishes vicarious redemption as the new divine order, and does not, nor would that character ever, argue against it's purpose for being.

We can imagine, if we like, that there was some historic jesus that was a rabbi and never would have said [insert whatever we like here] - but that is not the character in magic book. If we want to discuss the character in magic book, at some point, we'll have to let it be what it is, rather than what we wish it were, or some Better™ version of it by the standards of ethical concerns or modern historic revisionism. Jesus was not a rabbi, and the idea of dumping our bad juju on some other is well represented in the abrahamic tradition. The ritual expatiation of cosmic debt in transactional faith is a known known. We may disagree with it on theological or ethical grounds, but the authors of new magic book definitely thought it was great.

If we can't imagine a rabbi telling that to people, and we think we're teasing out details of the historic jesus™ in this, then what does that tell us about the guy? I Am would like to insist that the christians got jesus wrong, but that's not what follows. It's a self serving reaffirmation of his own faith. No amount of quoting old magic book can help us with that. The people who wrote new magic book had their own religion, and, frankly, didn't know much about old magic book at all - nor would they have cared.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#12
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 27, 2020 at 8:35 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(July 26, 2020 at 2:55 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: In the broadest sense, he was (at least as depicted in the narrative). All Jewish men are rabbis.

Boru

He certainly isn't depicted as a rabbi in magic book.  

He's depicted as a demi-god set in opposition to nascent rabbinical tradition, that had become corrupt and stagnant - much like the world, providing the narrative and theological necessity of a new revelation, a new religion.  

Similarly, we've got Greatest I am re-imagining what some other non existent jesus would say about vicarious redemption - which is absurd.  The character in magic book establishes vicarious redemption as the new divine order, and does not, nor would that character ever, argue against it's purpose for being.

We can imagine, if we like, that there was some historic jesus that was a rabbi and never would have said [insert whatever we like here] - but that is not the character in magic book.  If we want to discuss the character in magic book, at some point, we'll have to let it be what it is, rather than what we wish it were, or some Better™ version of it by the standards of ethical concerns or modern historic revisionism.  Jesus was not a rabbi, and the idea of dumping our bad juju on some other is well represented in the abrahamic tradition.  The ritual expatiation of cosmic debt in transactional faith is a known known.  We may disagree with it on theological or ethical grounds, but the authors of new magic book definitely thought it was great.  

If we can't imagine a rabbi telling that to people, and we think we're teasing out details of the historic jesus™ in this, then what does that tell us about the guy?  I Am would like to insist that the christians got jesus wrong, but that's not what follows.  It's a self serving reaffirmation of his own faith.  No amount of quoting old magic book can help us with that.  The people who wrote new magic book had their own religion, and, frankly, didn't know much about old magic book at all - nor would they have cared.

I said ‘in the broadest sense’. ‘Rabbi’ roughly means ‘teacher’. Jewish tradition holds that 
ALL men have something to teach, which is why many Jewish males refer to each other as ‘Reb So-and-so’ (‘rebbe’ being the Yiddish version of ‘rabbi’). 

I’ll agree, though, that he was an unconventional rabbi, and what you say about his being in opposition to rabbinical tradition is correct.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#13
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
Original sin, until belief and repentance....... he punishes all.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem




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#14
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 26, 2020 at 2:53 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Your argument, and that of many Christians, presumes that Jesus was innocent (or sinless). A cursory reading of the NT shows that this isn’t the case.

One could argue that Jesus more or less sacrificed himself as opposed to being used as a scapegoat. Since he was willing to die, the case that he was ‘punished’ is rather weak. If a father sacrifices himself to save his childrens’ lives, no one would describe it as a punishment.

*removes his Devil’s Advocate hat*

Boru

I would love to hear your interpretation on the sinfulness of Jesus and citing of scriptures.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#15
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 26, 2020 at 2:38 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
 
Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.
 
If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.
 
These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.
 
Regards
DL

When it comes to ANY religion in the world, there is not one religion ever ,in human history that does not have histories of followers that justify tribalism.

Otherwise Buddhists and Hindus wouldn't fight among themselves. But human history proves that they do.

Buddhist fight each other between Tibet and China and Japan. Hindus have murdered Muslims for eating cows. 

Humans would do  better worldwide in skipping tribalistic bullshit.
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#16
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 27, 2020 at 1:48 pm)tackattack Wrote:
(July 26, 2020 at 2:53 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Your argument, and that of many Christians, presumes that Jesus was innocent (or sinless). A cursory reading of the NT shows that this isn’t the case.

One could argue that Jesus more or less sacrificed himself as opposed to being used as a scapegoat. Since he was willing to die, the case that he was ‘punished’ is rather weak. If a father sacrifices himself to save his childrens’ lives, no one would describe it as a punishment.

*removes his Devil’s Advocate hat*

Boru

I would love to hear your interpretation on the sinfulness of Jesus and citing of scriptures.

Here's one example

[Image: fool.jpg]

But let me guess, Jesus's rules only apply to other people but not him.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#17
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
It's a fundamentally pointless task. How could the god man be wrong by a standard literally defined as whatever the god man does, says, wants, or deigns?

Jesus can't be sinful unless we're asking about something outside the arbitrary criteria invoked. Breaking your own laws or failing to heed your own advice is only meaningful when the source of either (and worry) is exterior to you. If I say a today, and b tomorrow, a was only true today and tomorrow b will be true. If I do what I tell you not to do, who cares, I was telling you not to do it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#18
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 27, 2020 at 1:48 pm)tackattack Wrote:
(July 26, 2020 at 2:53 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Your argument, and that of many Christians, presumes that Jesus was innocent (or sinless). A cursory reading of the NT shows that this isn’t the case.

One could argue that Jesus more or less sacrificed himself as opposed to being used as a scapegoat. Since he was willing to die, the case that he was ‘punished’ is rather weak. If a father sacrifices himself to save his childrens’ lives, no one would describe it as a punishment.

*removes his Devil’s Advocate hat*

Boru

I would love to hear your interpretation on the sinfulness of Jesus and citing of scriptures.

Well, he was certainly rude to his mum (John 2:4). If breaking a commandment is a sin, I’m sure this qualifies.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#19
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 26, 2020 at 7:46 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Jesus is whomever you want him to be.

Basically, but that does not speak to the morality angle in the O.P.

Regards
DL

(July 27, 2020 at 1:29 pm)brewer Wrote: Original sin, until belief and repentance....... he punishes all.

That would be ok if scriptures did not say that we do not have the free will to believe or not.

You need to read the quotes in this old O.P.

==========

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?
 
Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ
 
Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.
 
The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.
 
If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?
 
Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?
 
Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?
 
I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.
 
Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.
  
What is your choice of those two options?
 
Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.
 
I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.
 
What do you think is the truth?
 
Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?
 
Regards
DL

Is it a sin to tell people, that to be saved, they have to abdicate their own responsibilities and put them on Jesus?

IOW, is substitutional punishment moral?

Regards
DL

(July 27, 2020 at 2:21 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(July 26, 2020 at 2:38 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
 
Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.
 
If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.
 
These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.
 
Regards
DL

When it comes to ANY religion in the world, there is not one religion ever ,in human history that does not have histories of followers that justify tribalism.

Otherwise Buddhists and Hindus wouldn't fight among themselves. But human history proves that they do.

Buddhist fight each other between Tibet and China and Japan. Hindus have murdered Muslims for eating cows. 

Humans would do  better worldwide in skipping tribalistic bullshit.

Tribalism is a part of our instincts as we are born the most insecure animal on the planet.

What human bonding mechanism would you invent to replace it? How do we ignore our instincts to form tribes?

I can only see having people think of all humanity as a tribe, but a one world government and system, people fear.

Experts say we are moving that way and will inevitably get there, but I think you and I will not live long enough to see it.

Regards
DL
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#20
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 27, 2020 at 4:24 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Tribalism is a part of our instincts as we are born the most insecure animal on the planet.

Tribalism occurs when we say "people like that are dumb and people like me are smart." Or when we look at a large and diverse group of people and say "those people are promoting tribalism but people like me oppose it." 

Quote:you and I will not live long enough to see it.

That's because you are promoting tribalism, by blaming a tribe who's different from you.
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