Who will swallow the Corona virus debt? The rich or the poor?

[Silver]

Realistically, debt shouldn't exist. It really is a concept created by the rich so that they can remain rich.

There's just too much wrong with this world, and despite coming off as arrogant or narcissistic, I could actually fix everything if I was put in charge. I wouldn't even demand anything, definitely not money. I would figure putting everything right would be reward enough.

The problem would be the rich people and the corporations and the churches; they're already the problems thinking they're the solution, so of course they'd cause the stink in attempting at a fix.

[The Grand Nudger]

Debt is a real thing....and normative statements about whether or not it should exist can't touch that. It's probably more accurate to say that debt was invented by the poor so that they might become rich (if we're forgiving the use of those terms). I need your horses to plow my fields...but since I have yet to plow my fields I have nothing to pay for that unit of labor. I take on debt, you take on risk, we both seek to profit and in 90 days or so we'll see how it all pans out. It's that hope, right there, that people inevitably come up with ways to exploit.

With respect to wealth and poverty and debt, corporations aren't the problem - it's the ways in which they can manipulate those variables that are not available to people. So, taking the example above...

As a person, if I borrow a tractor from john, and I fail to pay...they'll take back the tractor but I'll still owe the debt. That's trash.
As a corporation, if I borrow a tractor from john, and a fail to pay..I can shift that real asset to a new entity, load that entities debt onto the existing failed entity, and nope right the fuck out.

Now, I know, I know, somebody might say -yeah, but eventually people wil stop doing business with a corproate entity that acts like that. No, they won't....because that entity has money, and more money, all the time. Vulture capitalism works.

Of course, in a system like that, one group (and their controlling interests) will accrue endless wealth while the other remains in stasis forever going up and down. The only recourse for that group is to tax the other. Failing that, to literally steal their shit - which is how we lived for about 47k of our 50k years.

[Silver]

I'll never be convinced that corporations aren't the problem.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't think that's true. I'm sure that you could, supplied with all relevant facts, realize that corporations aren't even a symptom of the problem.

That it's more that they're entities which can exploit the problem and it's symptoms in ways that others cannot.

[Angrboda]

Governments don't have bank balances. Government debt is different from individual debt. Paying it back is a misunderstanding of that difference. Individuals handle debt by supplying money, governments by adjusting economic policy. The former requires resources, the latter does not.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's the rub. Individuals, corporations and government all have a very different situation and structure and opportunities for how we can manipulate debt. This real and information asymmetry is exploited to great effect by politicians.

Being good at manipulating debt can take an individual person pretty far - but you hit a wall with respect to what options you have available at the limits of your allotted zones. If people could manipulate debt the way that corporations or government can manipulate debt (as in, could legally do so) then I'd hesitate to say that all problems would be solved...but you'd have to scrape the barrel pretty hard to come up with them.

What we see now is a corporate capture of the governance of debt, and that, not debt or corporations (or even governance), is the problem.

(and to answer the opq, there is no who will..the poor have already paid - all the way down to having funded the research that will produce a product that they will..then, pay for again.)

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I'll never be convinced that corporations aren't the problem.

You’re already convinced that corporations are the problem. Simply think the opposite, and it can be so.

Let me know how that works out for you.

Boru

[Greatest I am]

Realistically, debt shouldn't exist. It really is a concept created by the rich so that they can remain rich.

There's just too much wrong with this world, and despite coming off as arrogant or narcissistic, I could actually fix everything if I was put in charge. I wouldn't even demand anything, definitely not money. I would figure putting everything right would be reward enough.

The less an ideology demands of it's adherents, the less longevity it will have.
Those are stats that show up at about the 9 min. mark.
The Groupish Gene - Jonathan Haidt - YouTube
Regards
DL

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I'll never be convinced that corporations aren't the problem.

I won't argue against this as they end in writing the legislation that their slaved political lackeys pass.

I would also put blame on the gullible public who do not see who they are really being led by.

Have you seen George Carlin's American Dream skit.

It is worth looking up.

Regards
DL

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Governments don't have bank balances.  Government debt is different from individual debt.  Paying it back is a misunderstanding of that difference.  Individuals handle debt by supplying money, governments by adjusting economic policy.  The former requires resources, the latter does not.

I do not particularly buy your overall view2, but if true, then you make my point, I think, of governments creating poverty.

Why do governments not just end poverty if no resources are necessary?

Regards
DL

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(and to answer the opq, there is no who will..the poor have already paid - all the way down to having funded the research that will produce a product that they will..then, pay for again.)

The poor do not have the resources to fund much of anything, but they do make a good make work project for those who get funding from those who have the resources to give them.

To maintain poverty in a country for job creation, is sick.

The poor pay with their miserable lives while the middle class pay most of everything else. The rich have had a long run at learning how to cover their ass and keep their wealth.

Regards
DL

[Aegon]

..no? Not at all? You haven't demonstrated taxation actually determines wealth. Because it doesn't.

Can't refute, so deny.

A good strategy for dummies.

Regards
DL

I told you the things I think actually create poverty and you just said "No, those are irrelevant, taxation does." The fuck am I supposed to say to that? You haven't offered evidence for your claim. You called me a "dummie" for not being able to refute nothing.

[Greatest I am]

Can't refute, so deny.

A good strategy for dummies.

Regards
DL

I told you the things I think actually create poverty and you just said "No, those are irrelevant, taxation does." The fuck am I supposed to say to that? You haven't offered evidence for your claim. You called me a "dummie" for not being able to refute nothing.

You are not supposed to say anything. You are supposed to put your brain in gear.

Taxation creates poverty. 

I just put a proof of concept to a guy who lost 10 g this year and has dropped below the poverty line.

That is by using his usual tax rate.

I asked him to change the tax rate to where he was to land above the poverty line.

The fact that he can do so, at least on paper, shows that poverty is directly related to tax policies along with minimum wage laws.

Refute that proof of concept if you can.

You might note, when you can't, that that is why it ignores all your irrelevant add on reasons to poverty.

Regards
DL