Who will swallow the Corona virus debt? The rich or the poor?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I told you the things I think actually create poverty and you just said "No, those are irrelevant, taxation does." The fuck am I supposed to say to that? You haven't offered evidence for your claim. You called me a "dummie" for not being able to refute nothing.

You are not supposed to say anything. You are supposed to put your brain in gear.

Taxation creates poverty. 

I just put a proof of concept to a guy who lost 10 g this year and has dropped below the poverty line.

That is by using his usual tax rate.

I asked him to change the tax rate to where he was to land above the poverty line.

The fact that he can do so, at least on paper, shows that poverty is directly related to tax policies along with minimum wage laws.

Refute that proof of concept if you can.

You might note, when you can't, that that is why it ignores all your irrelevant add on reasons to poverty.

Regards
DL

That's not a proof, that's an assertion. Assuming that your story is true, it still doesn't prove that taxes pushed that guy into poverty. If the loss of 10 000 pushed him that close to the poverty line, then it was the loss, not the tax on his remaining income, that dropped him into poverty.

Boru

[Greatest I am]

That's not a proof, that's an assertion. Assuming that your story is true, it still doesn't prove that taxes pushed that guy into poverty. If the loss of 10 000 pushed him that close to the poverty line, then it was the loss, not the tax on his remaining income, that dropped him into poverty.

Boru

It is a proof unless you can disprove the logic trail.

Do you see the tax system and rates as helping the rich stay rich?

Many think so.

If so, what is so hard to recognize that that same conditions and rates keeps the poor poor?

Regards
DL

[The Grand Nudger]

When you say The Tax System™ you'd have to be more specific. Tax the poor to feed the rich? If necessary, I could bust out some explicit graphs of how our tax code has been intentionally designed to do this, and being so - the predictable effect has been a loss of wealth at the bottom and an immense increase at the top.

However, taxation doesn't have to increase poverty - even though the way that we do taxation here in the states right now most certainly has had (or contributed to) that effect. It's not a particularly good way to fund services, either..but since we don't offer first world services I guess we can ignore that hiccup. It would be just as easy to find examples of where a specific implementation has lifted people up and out of poverty (and we don't even have to switch countries, we can just look at america in other times).

As a statement of a specific and very silly way to do taxes, it's spot on, but as a logical proof about taxes in general, it's doa. It's possible that your friend is in a range of incomes where, if he could lower his tax commitment to the percentages paid by the rich, he would not fall below the poverty line - but that's not on simple account of his being taxed - but the specific implementation of rates which allow for that as a consequence. It also suggests that your friend is living on the razors edge, which is influenced by tax rates (and any number of other legal systems regarding our finances) but not specifically or uniquely predicated by them. If so, then your friend could benefit from having a pro do his taxes..but ofc, poor people generally can't afford that - another aspect of keeping them poor.

If we're being super generous, we could say that taxation is a way to spread existing poverty around..which is great if the spread is equitable and satisfies it's purpose - but not so great if that spread is confined to the already poor - as it currently is, at least here.

[Greatest I am]

When you say The Tax System™ you'd have to be more specific.  Tax the poor to feed the rich?  If necessary, I could bust out some explicit graphs of how our tax code has been intentionally designed to do this, and being so - the predictable effect has been a loss of wealth at the bottom and an immense increase at the top.

However, taxation doesn't have to increase poverty - even though the way that we do taxation here in the states right now most certainly has had (or contributed to) that effect.  It's not a particularly good way to fund services, either..but since we don't offer first world services I guess we can ignore that hiccup.  It would be just as easy to find examples of where a specific implementation has lifted people up and out of poverty (and we don't even have to switch countries, we can just look at america in other times).  

As a statement of a specific and very silly way to do taxes, it's spot on, but as a logical proof about taxes in general, it's doa.  It's possible that your friend is in a range of incomes where, if he could lower his tax commitment to the percentages paid by the rich, he would not fall below the poverty line - but that's not on simple account of his being taxed - but the specific implementation of rates which allow for that as a consequence.  It also suggests that your friend is living on the razors edge, which is influenced by tax rates (and any number of other legal systems regarding our finances) but not specifically or uniquely predicated by them.  If so, then your friend could benefit from having a pro do his taxes..but ofc, poor people generally can't afford that - another aspect of keeping them poor.  

If we're being super generous, we could say that taxation is a way to spread existing poverty around..which is great if the spread is equitable and satisfies it's purpose - but not so great if that spread is confined to the already poor - as it currently is, at least here.

You are correct that it is more complicated as a tax law works in conjunction with other laws, like a minimum income law.

Have a look at reality, in this link, and see just how little loose change from the rich it would take to end poverty. 

9 out of 10 Americans are completely wrong about this mind-blowing fact. - Upworthy

[url=https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2][/url]Regards
DL

[HappySkeptic]

When you say The Tax System™ you'd have to be more specific.  Tax the poor to feed the rich?  If necessary, I could bust out some explicit graphs of how our tax code has been intentionally designed to do this, and being so - the predictable effect has been a loss of wealth at the bottom and an immense increase at the top.

The middle class takes on the largest tax burden.  The rich have many ways to increase wealth while paying little tax.  The poor don't have the money to tax (well, except for booze and cigarettes).

Yes, rich people do actually pay half the taxes, but its still a small percentage.  If you tax them too highly, they will either leave or pay a politician to reverse it.  The rich don't have to sit there and take your taxes, but the middle class does.

[The Grand Nudger]

The rich aren't leaving. That's a threat for effect, not something that they actually do. The rich absolutely do have to sit there and take our taxes if they want access to the system that made them rich...which they emphatically do. That's why batshit threats like that come up, not because they'll do it, but because it negotiates the price down.

As far as who pays what and how much. Let's do some math. Say we live in Grand Nudgerstan, tax rate is 70%. The rich make 100 a day, the poor make 10. Who can afford to buy dinner with what's left of their income after taxes? Obviously, irl, the disparity is greater than 1-10 in earnings..but it's even worse because the percentage of income paid is higher the poorer you are, not lower. To the extent that this is a poorly implemented system with the inexorable consequence of the rich getting richer while the less rich get poorer and the poor become....statistical non entities, is as far as the idea that taxation creates poverty can be stretched to include. Some poverty (and ultimately all poverty - I'd say) comes down to base resource disparities, but some of it is imposed.