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The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
#11
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
At work.

So, firstly, hello Redstar. Smile

Now a clarifying question.

The X-tian deity (The 'Father' bit... and maybe the 'Spirit' bit as well) are attributed with being 'Omnipotent' (You can add/expand on having the other two 'Omni's' as well if you want)

The question is. Did the supposed 'Jesus' aspect have access to even a part of said 'Omni' power?

If Jesus did then Satan can't tempt him. The whole idea is just silly. Why temp some one who, even if they don't know everything they are definitely positively with out a doubt certain (The whole 'Aspect of god' thing) that there is that 'Omni' thing out there that they are a part of.

Now, if Jesus could be tempted. (For the whole tale to make any sense) then does that mean that Jesus didn't have that 'Divine connection?

Things to think upon.

Cheers.
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#12
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
(February 23, 2021 at 11:32 am)Redstar Wrote:
(February 8, 2021 at 7:13 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: It's ridiculous on several levels, but it isn't even internally coherent.

In Matthew 4:1-11, when Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days, the following occurs:  "Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me".

So, if Satan knows that Jesus is the god of the universe, he would also know that Jesus already owns "the kingdoms of the world". Jesus would obviously also know that "the kingdoms of the world" are already his. So, what exactly is the ammunition being used in the temptation?

If I walked into your house, and pointed to your tv on the wall, and said, I will give you that tv if you bow down to me, anyone in their right mind, would laugh at me, and kick me out of their house.

How could Jesus be tempted with the promise of getting the stuff he already owns? And everyone in the story already knows he owns it.

Jesus Christ is both God and man.  He has both a divine nature and a human nature.

Yes, Satan is aware of His divine nature* - hence the efforts to subjugate Him.  However, with his efforts to tempt, he is appealing to Christ's human nature because from experience he also knows human nature is fragile (i.e prone to greed, lust, anger, selfishness, deceit etc).



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#13
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
(February 8, 2021 at 7:13 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: How could Jesus be tempted with the promise of getting the stuff he already owns? And everyone in the story already knows he owns it.

He doesn't own it at this point in the story. The world is fully and completely under Satan's possession; and has been so since the fall of Adam. The central premise of the story is that Satan was offering Christ a shortcut—no need for further struggle and sacrifice, no need for the cross, etc:

"Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself" (John 12:31)
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#14
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
(February 8, 2021 at 7:13 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: It's ridiculous on several levels, but it isn't even internally coherent.

In Matthew 4:1-11, when Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days, the following occurs:  "Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me".
if you read the whole passage you'd note he was also fasting/ had not eaten for 40 days. so his mind/body is near death as i do not think he had a big fat supply to sustain him. so he was very pliable and susceptible to suggestion. which is why the first thing satan offered was to have jesus turn the stones (which look like the type of bread they baked) into bread.
Quote:So, if Satan knows that Jesus is the god of the universe, he would also know that Jesus already owns "the kingdoms of the world". Jesus would obviously also know that "the kingdoms of the world" are already his. So, what exactly is the ammunition being used in the temptation?
brother the bible says over and over and over again world does not belong to God but to satan. Even in the Lord prayer we are told to pray : or father who is in Heaven.. your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven... now riddle me this.. if God will was being done here why must we pray for the day for this to happen, and if God's will is not being done yet but we are to pray for a future day God's will be done then how in the world is this God's kingdom? it's NOT! Hell is not Satan's kingdom. Hell is where Satan is to be punished! (the difference between greek/ Roman mythology and Christianity most of you do not know) this is satan's world this is his realm this is where his will is done.

It was God's plan to have christ die on the cross as payment for the souls of the men who chose to worship God over Satan and the lord of this world. To save them from the fate of satan and his followers.

So What satan offers here a way for men to worship Jesus/god without the cross. if you FF to the night jeus was take prisioner to be hung on the cross the next day his sweat turned to blood he was praying so hard to have the father take the burden of the cross from him. Jesus hated and fear the idea of the cross.
yet here jesus rebukes satan for offering a cross-less way to be worshiped by men. even in a physically dimished and mentally fatigued state
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#15
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
I think it's hilarious that you think there's a riddle there. The idea of gods kingdom coming is very specifically about that lovely future day - not the belief that god isn't the god of the earth. The earth is just as much his as anything else that exists, including satan.

A christian is pretty much the last person who's going to get that one right. It's a jewish story, not a story about your silly god.

As a matter of further lulz...why do you think that a christian hell is different than a roman one? Elysium, heaven, is where heroes and warriors went. Tartarus, hell..the place where the wicked are punished. Who's this most of us and what exactly do you think that you know about roman or greek mythology?

Willing to bet that it's a bunch of self serving evangelical loon shit.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#16
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
(February 25, 2021 at 1:34 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I think it's hilarious that you think there's a riddle there.  The idea of gods kingdom coming is very specifically about that lovely future day - not the belief that god isn't the god of the earth.  The earth is just as much his as anything else that exists, including satan.
that's a great sentiment if you only look at the first line God kingdom come. but when you pair it with the second verse God's will be don on earth as it is in heven then your exegesis of the singular passage no longer fit the theme of the prayer. as in the one prayer we are taught to pray we are to want and ask for God kingdom to come fourth/to live under God which is emphasized by the second verse God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. if these things were happening on the level that Jesus taught then why are we been instructed to ask for these things? look at the evil (popular morality verse God's laws being obeyed) of this world it represents the majority and always has represented how people act.
Quote:A christian is pretty much the last person who's going to get that one right.
unless the story has more than one part.
Quote:  It's a jewish story, not a story about your silly god.
if there was no Christ.. i'd say you were right. Christ himself is afront to the idea that the jewish narritive is complete.
Quote:As a matter of further lulz...why do you think that a christian hell is different than a roman one?
roman hell is in the after life where a god torments the evil souls of men. the bible version of Hell there is no God and satan himself is slated to burn forever in torment.

Quote:  Elysium, heaven, is where heroes and warriors went.
and the rich..
Quote: Tartarus, hell..the place where the wicked are punished.
the wicked in the bible are sent to hell to be consumed/die their second death. only satan burn forever.

Quote: Who's this most of us and what exactly do you think that you know about roman or greek mythology?
people who think as you do who have simplied heaven as a reward and hell as eternal punishment ruled by an ultimate tormentor.  Heaven is service to God in an effort to become family much like how a slave would join a wealth family to later be considered a son. hell is torment for Satan and destruction for everyone else.
Quote:Willing to bet that it's a bunch of self serving evangelical loon shit.
the only self serving loon site will be found in the hearts of those who elect hell over service to God in heaven.
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#17
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
(February 8, 2021 at 7:43 pm)tackattack Wrote: Check out hypostatic union over on wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostatic_union

“ ...God, understood as a perfectly good, perfectly wise, perfectly powerful being, fully became a human, in the Christian understanding of the term: burdened by sin, limited in goodness, knowledge, and understanding.”

Yes, christian theologians are pretty good at coming up with bullshit to try and mask the illogic behind their mythology. Pity it doesn't work any more.
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#18
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
(February 23, 2021 at 11:32 am)Redstar Wrote:
(February 8, 2021 at 7:13 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: It's ridiculous on several levels, but it isn't even internally coherent.

In Matthew 4:1-11, when Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days, the following occurs:  "Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me".

So, if Satan knows that Jesus is the god of the universe, he would also know that Jesus already owns "the kingdoms of the world". Jesus would obviously also know that "the kingdoms of the world" are already his. So, what exactly is the ammunition being used in the temptation?

If I walked into your house, and pointed to your tv on the wall, and said, I will give you that tv if you bow down to me, anyone in their right mind, would laugh at me, and kick me out of their house.

How could Jesus be tempted with the promise of getting the stuff he already owns? And everyone in the story already knows he owns it.

Jesus Christ is both God and man.  He has both a divine nature and a human nature.

Yes, Satan is aware of His divine nature* - hence the efforts to subjugate Him.  However, with his efforts to tempt, he is appealing to Christ's human nature because from experience he also knows human nature is fragile (i.e prone to greed, lust, anger, selfishness, deceit etc).

(*or he at least suspects this, which we can tell from what he says)

I understand what you mean about God "owning" the kingdoms of the world, however, but Jesus Christ 'the man' did not own them in any meaningful or beneficial way.  To the world, He was a carpenter's son from Nazareth, not a man of means.  Yet, these things  could have made Him rich and powerful - at least for a while.  Hence Satan's angle for tempting.

No, still bullshit.
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#19
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
(February 23, 2021 at 11:32 am)Redstar Wrote: 1) Jesus Christ is both God and man. 

2) He has both a divine nature and a human nature.

3) Yes, Satan is aware of His divine nature* - hence the efforts to subjugate Him.

  However, with his efforts to tempt, he is appealing to Christ's human nature because from experience he also knows human nature is fragile (i.e prone to greed, lust, anger, selfishness, deceit etc).

1) So Jesus was aware of his own divinity. Cool.

3) Satan is aware that Jesus is aware of Jesus' knowledge of Jesus' own divinity.

So, why bother to temp some one who should be completly above temptatin'? It makes no sense.

Which leads us back to the problem of just how powerful the diety part of Jesus is. Since, even knowing Jesus is pluged into the diety Santa still thinks it can tempt him.

Plus this wording makes Jesus out to be schizophrenic.

Coffee

Not at work.
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#20
RE: The ridiculous story of the temptation of Jesus
(February 25, 2021 at 2:54 pm)Drich Wrote: if there was no Christ.. i'd say you were right. Christ himself is afront to the idea that the jewish narritive is complete.
Sounds like I'm right, then.  Glad that's settled.

Quote:roman hell is in the after life where a god torments the evil souls of men. the bible version of Hell there is no God and satan himself is slated to burn forever in torment.
Like any of the minor gods and demi-gods also stuck in hades or tartarus, you mean?

Quote:people who think as you do who have simplied heaven as a reward and hell as eternal punishment ruled by an ultimate tormentor.  Heaven is service to God in an effort to become family much like how a slave would join a wealth family to later be considered a son. hell is torment for Satan and destruction for everyone else.
What do you think warriors and heroes do in elysium?  They continue to serve and become, very literally, members of the divine family. Sons of Jupiter and Mars.

Quote:the only self serving loon site will be found in the hearts of those who elect hell over service to God in heaven.

Stop laughing at me or my god will hurt you!  Jerkoff

I know that researching greco-roman religion is simply beyond you, but have you ever given any thought toresearching on your own..or..competent apologetics, at least?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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