The Watchmaker: my fav argument

[The Grand Nudger]

That's how it very literally has worked for art declared to be earthly hitlers.....?

That's how it very much has to work if you want to assert that an alleged design can tell us bout it's designer, as well. If it doesn't work that way, then the notion of natural observations leading to any conclusion of intelligent design is doa.

It was always your knot to tie. : shrugs :

[John 6IX Breezy]

That's how it very much has to work if you want to assert that an alleged design can tell us bout it's designer, as well.

Who's asserting that a design tells us anything interesting about it's designer? I'm on record as saying intelligent design doesn't even imply gods (some people attribute it to aliens).

[The Grand Nudger]

You think it implies an intelligent designer, that's one thing it tells us. You've posited that the designer in question is both evil and incompetent, that's two more things. Interesting things appears to be your newest bit of arglebargle to bicker over.

Does it not work that way? Can we not look at a thing and say, hmn, this looks designed, and it looks like it was designed by...x...? What on earth gave you the impression that this would be an ad hom, and if we can't do that, where are we supposed to begin with any notion of intelligent design?

[John 6IX Breezy]

Is there a reason you insist on making an intellectual mess of things? Obfuscation does the forum more of a disservice than me.

[The Grand Nudger]

What am I obfuscating, specifically? I'm asking for clarity on some rule that you'd like to assert. Just as I did when you suggested an evil and incompetent god, I'm fully committed to supporting your claim to either side of this rule and absolutely on board with helping you as you continue to whip out your dick and mercilessly beat the living shit out of it.

If we can't look at a thing and say "this looks like it was designed by an x" - then intelligent design is a nonstarter. QED.

If we -can- look at a thing and say "this looks like it was designed by an x" - then you're going to have to refrain from clutching your pearls when someone does exactly this.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Yeah, clarity is definitely what you're after lol.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, very much, is it forthcoming?

[possibletarian]

If its purpose was to design an earth that seems not ideal for purpose and un-designed, then kudos to it, it did a great job, but then how can we tell the difference?

If you had purchased the earth off the shelf in a god shop, advertised as an ideally designed  place for humans to live in, you would return it as faulty

(The atomic bomb illustrates that destruction can be purposeful and designed. If that wasn't your initial point I retract my argument.)

To the latter, I think that in agreeing that Earth is faulty and needs returning you've echoed the Christian narrative. Not only does the story claim that Earth broke down at the Fall and got tossed inside out at the Flood, but there's continual references to restoration and a New Earth to come.

That's exactly my point you cannot show a shred of evidence that the earth, the solar system or the universe was other than less than ideal. Sin and the fall, and the flood  is a made up narrative that does not fit earths history at all, and theology and bible is nothing more than a long list of excuses to why creation and its god is less than perfect.

When you quote the bible all you are doing is echoing others made up excuses. If you have evidence that the earth ever existed  in any other way than we see it through its history could you show it ?

---

I'll take it one step further and gladly pretend he is not just incompetent but evil. Since the forum seems to think this has any logical significance on the question of existence or intelligent design, I'll accept both terms.

You are deliberately missing the point, you are suggesting things that are in the universe. You know every well that in forums like this the intelligent design debate is centred round the claim that a perfect being created everything.

[John 6IX Breezy]

When you quote the bible all you are doing is echoing others made up excuses. If you have evidence that the earth ever existed in any other way than we see it through its history could you show it ?

Biblical literacy is required to make a coherent objections. Otherwise, it's like making some contrarian claim about Harry Potter but refusing to hear quotations from the books.

If you already knew the Earth was created good and subsequently fell according to the story (and perhaps I've misunderstood you). Why did you imply that God created an earth that "seems not ideal?"

[The Grand Nudger]

Odd, if the world does not seem, today, the way that you would imagine a god to have created or designed it...what about looking at that world, today, would lead you to believe a god had created or designed it?