How to beat a presupp at their own game

[R00tKiT]

Justice is the antithesis of mercy. If Allah is ‘the most merciful’ (as he is described in the instructional manual), does that mean he is ‘the least just’?

Boru

Yeah have fun asserting that justice is incompatible with mercy. I don't agree with that. If a judge is just and instructs the right decision for any situation, it doesn't undermine his justness if he decides not to punish someone for some petty offense like disorderly conduct.

If the rule of justness to godness holds..ofc you are - but that doesn't actually matter to you, now does it?  You still think that your god is real, no matter how unjust your god might be.

Again, this "rule" applies to the articles of a religion as they are asserted by the religion itself. If there is a verse in the Qur'an that says "And Allah is not just" then we are done, but there isn't. Now of course you think Islam contains unjust instructions, despite being presented as just by proponents of Islam, but this is another discussion entirely. We can only rule out religions which "officially" present their deity as unjust.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Justice is the antithesis of mercy. If Allah is ‘the most merciful’ (as he is described in the instructional manual), does that mean he is ‘the least just’?

Boru

Yeah have fun asserting that justice is incompatible with mercy. I don't agree with that. If a judge is just and instructs the right decision for any situation, it doesn't undermine his justness if he decides not to punish someone for some petty offense like disorderly conduct.

Actually, that is precisely what the judge is doing. If he decides not to punish, or even to punish at a lesser degree that the law calls for, he is abrogating justice for mercy.

One the whole, I prefer mercy, but it’s simply thickheaded to suppose that both can be dispensed in the same instance.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

If the rule of justness to godness holds..ofc you are - but that doesn't actually matter to you, now does it?  You still think that your god is real, no matter how unjust your god might be.

Again, this "rule" applies to the articles of a religion as they are asserted by the religion itself. If there is a verse in the Qur'an that says "And Allah is not just" then we are done, but there isn't. Now of course you think Islam contains unjust instructions, despite being presented as just by proponents of Islam, but this is another discussion entirely. We can only rule out religions which "officially" present their deity as unjust.

There's no shortage of such verses in your magic book.  You're a fucking savage, who worships a savage god - but don't let that dig too deep....that's the thing I actually like about you and your god. Remember...it's your rule that a shitty god can't be a god....not mine.

[Foxaèr]

If there is a verse in the Qur'an that says "And Allah is not just" then we are done, but there isn't.

What, the devil not a good enough antagonist against a biased belief system?

[The Grand Nudger]

If the rule of justness to godness holds..ofc you are - but that doesn't actually matter to you, now does it?  You still think that your god is real, no matter how unjust your god might be.

Again, this "rule" applies to the articles of a religion as they are asserted by the religion itself. If there is a verse in the Qur'an that says "And Allah is not just" then we are done, but there isn't. Now of course you think Islam contains unjust instructions, despite being presented as just by proponents of Islam, but this is another discussion entirely. We can only rule out religions which "officially" present their deity as unjust.

Blah, blah blah...blah blah.

Your god is trash. Filth. Unworthy of human company. Next

[Mister Agenda]

Justice is when you get the punishment you deserve. Mercy is when you don't.

[Angrboda]

So, in other words, it's futile to worship the god of Islam because that god is not a just god (except by his own standards, which doesn't count)?

"Get your just god here!  Two for one special today!"

Actually, when I say justness property I only mean it as it is presented by the articles of the religion itself. If some christian denomination defines its god as a just god, then I don't have the right to rule out the christian god just because I think it's not just, which is what you seem to be doing here.

I didn't specify why I thought your god was unjust, so you're just trying to attribute reasons to me that haven't been said. The fact is that is not the reason I think your god is an unjust god, and while I disagree that a god should be judged upon how a religion describes their god, as false and contradictory attributes are not uncommonly applied to people's god, I think your god is unjust by the religion's own criteria. Tell me, according to whom is your god just? And before you answer, let me point out that Hitler probably thought himself moral and just according to his own standards. So, according to whom is your god just? What standard apart from Allah does your god align with?

[R00tKiT]

Actually, that is precisely what the judge is doing. If he decides not to punish, or even to punish at a lesser degree that the law calls for, he is abrogating justice for mercy.

What law?  Isn't God the ultimate moral authority? Isn't anything god does a law itself ?

And again, you're just asserting that justice gets abrogated by mercy, it's not always true and depends on the situation. Being "merciful" can mean for example shortening the duration of some punishment without canceling it completely, etc. There are levels of mercy, after all. 

Overall, I frankly don't think anyone can make a sound case against an all-knowing god being unjust to its creatures based on our very limited understanding of morality and ethics. I have the impression that it's even arrogant to address these issues this way. And even if we accept your assertion, that justice logically contradicts mercy, it's still possible to say that a creature to whom god was "merciful" - or merely just in more subtle ways - did good deeds to compensate for the amount of sin it committed, because a maximally great being won't neglect these good deeds no matter how small. 

One the whole, I prefer mercy, but it’s simply thickheaded to suppose that both can be dispensed in the same instance.

Boru

Why is it thickheaded ? If judge x arbitrarily pardons a murderer, he is clearly unjust. If he decides not to punish someone for some misdemeanor, that doesn't make him unjust. The difference between these two instances is not hard to understand.

There's no shortage of such verses in your magic book.  

Okay name one.

---

I didn't specify why I thought your god was unjust, so you're just trying to attribute reasons to me that haven't been said.  The fact is that is not the reason I think your god is an unjust god, and while I disagree that a god should be judged upon how a religion describes their god, as false and contradictory attributes are not uncommonly applied to people's god, I think your god is unjust by the religion's own criteria.  Tell me, according to whom is your god just?  And before you answer, let me point out that Hitler probably thought himself moral and just according to his own standards.  So, according to whom is your god just?  What standard apart from Allah does your god align with?

Your question doesn't make much sense. God is the ultimate moral authority in any religion or theology, the mere existence of some superior standard to god contradicts his godness. You can say you don't accept arguments for God's existence. But if you concede the latter, then you also concede his status as the source of morality.

[The Grand Nudger]

To what end, you've already indicated that you are well aware of the existence of other people's opinions about the contents of your magic book and the character of the god it describes.

You insisted that we could rule out religions with unjust gods. If so, we can rule your religion out, by your rule. I appreciate that you only intended to use this a cudgel against other peoples unjust gods - and I'll point out again that I think you've asserted a comically inept non-rule.

Simply put.... if you believe that this is a valid way to rule a religion in or out, then this is a standard that anyone can equally apply to your own.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Why is it thickheaded ? If judge x arbitrarily pardons a murderer, he is clearly unjust. If he decides not to punish someone for some misdemeanor, that doesn't make him unjust. The difference between these two instances is not hard to understand.

The level of the offense doesn’t alter the abrogation of justice. Justice may be thought of as getting what you deserve. If an offender deserves punishment X and is awarded X-n, it is merciful and - in many cases - the right thing to do. But it is not justice.

Of course, a judge (either divine or mortal) CAN be both just and merciful, but not at the same time. Allah has the prerogative, in any particular judgement, to dispense either justice or mercy, but it isn’t coherent to claim that he is always just and always merciful.

This point might be more clear to you if you’d read up on the concepts involved.

Boru