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Is there free will in Heaven?
#11
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
(April 5, 2021 at 1:18 pm)Drich Wrote:
(March 25, 2021 at 2:39 pm)Five Wrote: Can I choose to disobey God once I am in Heaven?

Isn't that the same as sin? Opposition to the will of God.

Is there sin in Heaven?

I don't believe that the idea of Heaven and Hell makes sense. Most notably regarding the problem of choice and identity.

If you no longer have the option to choose things that are wrong, to make mistakes, or to challenge/disobey God, are you even the same person?

No free will in Heaven. 
We all pray for God will be done, as his will is righteous and will free from righteousness is evil.

We do not, it is not, and prove it.

Boru
Ignorance is never valid grounds for the rejection of established facts.
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#12
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
(April 5, 2021 at 1:23 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(April 5, 2021 at 1:18 pm)Drich Wrote: No free will in Heaven. 
We all pray for God will be done, as his will is righteous and will free from righteousness is evil.

We do not, it is not, and prove it.

Boru
"we"  do it is in the Lord's prayer.. the proof of this prayer is recorded in luke 11:

11 And it came to pass that as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, one of His disciples said unto Him, “Lord, teach us to pray as John also taught his disciples.”

And He said unto them, “When ye pray, say: Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in Heaven, so on earth.

(April 5, 2021 at 1:50 pm)Drich Wrote:
(April 5, 2021 at 1:23 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: We do not, it is not, and prove it.

Boru
"we"  do it is in the Lord's prayer.. the proof of this prayer is recorded in luke 11:

11 And it came to pass that as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, one of His disciples said unto Him, “Lord, teach us to pray as John also taught his disciples.”

And He said unto them, “When ye pray, say: Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in Heaven, so on earth.

Sew.... if God's will is being done and we (those who will inhabit heaven to one degree or another ) have been instructed to and indeed pray for God's will to be done... then we are asking for God's will God's idea of a kingdom to supersede our own will and thoughts of will.
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#13
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
(March 25, 2021 at 3:39 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: We haven’t yet determined if there is free will on Earth.

Boru

I disagree, it is clear from the science that we don't have free will. The only reason it strikes as being a "grey area" in the zeitgeist is due to the fact we must be held responsible for our actions, including by ourselves, for society to manifest even the slimmest shard of functionality. So for all intents and purposes, we have free will. It's paradox central.  

As to the OP question - which heaven?
Violin Violin Violin Violin Violin Faints 
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#14
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
(April 5, 2021 at 1:50 pm)Drich Wrote:
(April 5, 2021 at 1:23 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: We do not, it is not, and prove it.

Boru
"we"  do it is in the Lord's prayer.. the proof of this prayer is recorded in luke 11:

11 And it came to pass that as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, one of His disciples said unto Him, “Lord, teach us to pray as John also taught his disciples.”

And He said unto them, “When ye pray, say: Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in Heaven, so on earth.

(April 5, 2021 at 1:50 pm)Drich Wrote: "we"  do it is in the Lord's prayer.. the proof of this prayer is recorded in luke 11:

11 And it came to pass that as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, one of His disciples said unto Him, “Lord, teach us to pray as John also taught his disciples.”

And He said unto them, “When ye pray, say: Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in Heaven, so on earth.

Sew.... if God's will is being done and we (those who will inhabit heaven to one degree or another ) have been instructed to and indeed pray for God's will to be done... then we are asking for God's will God's idea of a kingdom to supersede our own will and thoughts of will.

As an admittedly disgruntled member of ‘we all’, I can assure you that not everyone prays for God’s will to be done.

And I notice that the passage you quoted does not contain the pronoun ‘we’.

Boru
Ignorance is never valid grounds for the rejection of established facts.
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#15
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
Judging by what religion costs on Earth, I imagine nothing is free in heaven. god is apparently a Francis Xavier Cross type.
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#16
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
(April 5, 2021 at 1:18 pm)Drich Wrote:
(March 25, 2021 at 2:39 pm)Five Wrote: Can I choose to disobey God once I am in Heaven?

Isn't that the same as sin? Opposition to the will of God.

Is there sin in Heaven?

I don't believe that the idea of Heaven and Hell makes sense. Most notably regarding the problem of choice and identity.

If you no longer have the option to choose things that are wrong, to make mistakes, or to challenge/disobey God, are you even the same person?

No free will in Heaven. 
We all pray for God will be done, as his will is righteous and will free from righteousness is evil.

Sounds like a blast, lol.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#17
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
(March 25, 2021 at 2:39 pm)Five Wrote: Can I choose to disobey God once I am in Heaven?

Isn't that the same as sin? Opposition to the will of God.

Is there sin in Heaven?

I don't believe that the idea of Heaven and Hell makes sense. Most notably regarding the problem of choice and identity.

If you no longer have the option to choose things that are wrong, to make mistakes, or to challenge/disobey God, are you even the same person?

There are a lot of different descriptions of heaven, so I don't think there's only one answer to your question. People disagree.

I can answer based on the view of heaven in Dante's Divine Comedy. It is nearly the same as the official version from Thomas Aquinas.

Heaven, for these people, is not included in time and space. There is no change there, so the idea of making mistakes there or disobeying orders doesn't make sense. This sounds terrible if we imagine eternity as infinite duration, never-ending time, but that's not what it is. Outside of time means there's no time there. No duration. It's difficult to imagine because we live in time. 

Dante does analyze the notion of disobeying God, though, and how this is related to free will. 

Most people here seem to imagine that God is a tyrant issuing decrees which we might be better to ignore. This is not Dante's view. For Dante, God is the form of the Good. Obeying God, then, is not following orders but simply doing what is good. This will be good for others, but also good for oneself. So if you do in every case what is best, then you are "obeying God." 

You'll recognize this as completely Platonic. In this view, no one intentionally chooses the bad. If we choose to do bad, it's because we are mistaken about what's good. You might choose to commit a crime or do some kind of acting out, which society calls bad, because you think it will be good for yourself -- it will make you feel better or express your freedom or something. If in fact it's good, then you are not disobeying God -- there are times when society should be opposed or laws should be broken. If you're mistaken, and the thing you think is good for yourself is in fact bad, then God doesn't suffer from it. Only you do. So "disobeying God" mostly means hurting yourself. 

This is dramatized by Dante at the end of the Purgatorio. The character Dante (who is a fictionalized version of the author) reaches the top of the mountain, and has all of his sins purged out of him. Because sin, in his view, is the set of mistaken aims which cause us to choose what is bad, when the sin is all gone then we only choose what is good. 

Dante's guide, once all Dante's sin is purged, tells him that from now on he should do whatever he wants. Because without sin to distort his thinking, everything he chooses to do will be good. Which is what God wants. So that "obeying God," here, is not following tyrannical rules but just doing what you know to be best, once you are thinking well.
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#18
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
Most people imagine god as god was told to them. If that's a tyrant making decrees, so be it.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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#19
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
Oh goody, Drich got a day pass.
       I am the storm.                                                             
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#20
RE: Is there free will in Heaven?
But is there free will in Narnia?
The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will fly to the stars.

Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud ..... after a while you realise that the pig likes it!

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