Going a bit far with pronoun usage again

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Thank you for the reply.

Sadly I am still not understanding the nuance in your description/explanation.

[no one]

Let's just start saying;  Hey, asshole.That way, nobody is left out.

[AkiraTheViking]

SMH, the sheer level of cringe. This is why I'm neither 100% left nor 100% right.

[vulcanlogician]

I suspect that Normal Stuff™ sounds different to people who are not a part of the normal that society is organized around.  When we think of a future world where people are making us uncomfortable with their casual wokeness and pronoun use...weeeeeeell...we're probably feeling something like what those people are feeling now.

We're getting awfully vocal about it as we tell them to shut up.  Should be instructive.

That's one thing I like about the woke movement. It puts the shoe on the other foot. I think a lot of people might benefit from that... if they happen to reflect on the experience, anyway.

But at the same time, "Ladies and Gentlemen... boys and girls," is something of a colloquialism. Sure... buried in it are some long held gender norms. But you can hardly find an intent in those who repeat it that expresses anything about gender norms. What I think is: woke culture might do better to start a conversation about it rather than ringing the alarm bells, pointing fingers, or starting a shitstorm. There are times when a shitstorm is called for. But if shitstorms become ubiquitous, they'll lose their effect.

A lot of people aren't familiar with critical theory. When they hear about stuff like this, they're like "What the fuck?" To them, they're repeating something they've heard a million times ("Ladies and gentlemen..."). It's so cliche, it's devoid of intent. So people don't see why they should be faulted for saying things like this.

Aside from that, you have copycats around. "Dress up and play anarchist." But when they log off the internet, they resume loving capitalism with all their heart and soul. Insincere activists bug the shit out of me. I don't think anyone wants that to become commonplace. But that could very well happen. That's not good.

And, mind you, I will always side with the outcasts and the oppressed. I don't feel the least bit bothered by the deconstruction of gender norms. It's a fine activity. But bitching and moaning on the internet is shallow activism. Capitalism rolls on, unaffected... and these days, pretty much ignored. Why aren't people shaming capitalists? I don't feel like this sort of activism will ever make progress.

I mean, I'm not trying to complain or express offense at wokeness. I see a lot of good in it. But their methods could use a little critiquing methinks. And that's what I'm doing. Weak activism is weak activism. There's too much posturing and not enough substance.

[The Grand Nudger]

At work.

Thank you for the reply.

Sadly I am still not understanding the nuance in your description/explanation.

 

Well, just think of whatever you or society would call a boy who identifies as a girl but not as female.  That will give you the pre-existing term for whatever these people who call themselves non binary are.   

Is there room in the world for a boy who identifies as a girl but may not see sexual characteristics as a problem (or issue of) for their gender identity - and who, for what it's worth, also prefers girls?? That term encompasses people like that, who may not be homosexual or biologically disaffected in any way as a consequence of seeing or experiencing gender some other way. Other than binary.

Every binary utterance, however common or trivial to the binary, may be a reminder of their otherness - to them.

---

But at the same time, "Ladies and Gentlemen... boys and girls," is something of a colloquialism. Sure... buried in it are some long held gender norms. But you can hardly find an intent in those who repeat it that expresses anything about gender norms. 

The most abusive and offensive shit we do, we do without thinking about doing, because we're not thinking about doing it....and we do it all day every day.   To me, it's just a change in expression.  Our parents were similarly horrified and uncomfortable with how we all casually talk about this or that today, and vv.

The discomfort is shared - but it becomes a wedge instead of a bond. If bitching and moaning on the internet is shallow activism, bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning on the internet is basically walking on water.

[vulcanlogician]

Well, if bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning on the internet is walking on water, what is bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning about people bitching and moaning?

[The Grand Nudger]

Hovering just above the ground, freezing above the point of dew and whatnot, lol. I mean, if we think it's a situation of infinite regress rather than some people in a chain of regress being less perceptive than they might normally be expected to be.

-ofc

I think it's the latter. The anti-wokeness brigade spinning fanciful nightmares about the neverending progression of how people express themselves. Ever was it thus. The wokeness brigade...doing what people have always done, doing what the current occupants of the antiwokeness brigade already have done, themselves, in living memory.

[vulcanlogician]

I think it's the latter.  The anti-wokeness brigade spinning fanciful nightmares about the neverending progression of how people express themselves.  Ever was it thus.  The wokeness brigade...doing what people have always done, doing what the current occupants of the antiwokeness brigade already have done, themselves, in living memory.

There are other positions aside from "wokeness" and "anti-wokeness."

***
Story time:

University... psychology of adjustment class. My absolute favorite psych professor had the class split into 5 or so groups of 5 or so students. One student from each group was asked to leave the room and stand in the hall. The rest of us were instructed to communicate to the student (when they returned to the room) to stand on their chair-- BUT! We were only allowed to use the words "yes" and "no" to communicate this. Gestures, even looking or pointing were forbidden. We had to communicate solely through the words "yes" and "no."

So the students in the hall were summoned back into the room, and they (naturally) took their seats. Each of those students was greeted with everyone in their group looking at them and chanting "No! No! No! No!"

I mean the students who stood in the hall had no idea what the fuck was going on. They were told nothing about the purpose of the exercise. Eventually, one student stood up. Of course the response was "Yes! Yes! Yes!" from their group, and then the others stood up.

Eventually, and it took a long damn time, one of the students stood up on her chair. Then the exercise was over and we were asked to reflect on what transpired.

The exercise was meant to demonstrate what children feel like when they are being taught mores and cultural norms. As Socrates points out, even those who obey these norms have no idea why they obey them. They couldn't explain them to another adult, let alone a child. But all children face a barrage of "No! No! No!" that they need to adjust to.

Case and point: "No! No! No!" can do some work. But it is immensely aided if you also say, "Yes! Yes! Yes!" when it is warranted. And (being the idealist that I am) I feel that some day we can simply communicate things with a plethora of words. Because "No! No! No!" only gets us so far. It does do some work. But it can't do all the work. And if all you're saying is "No! No! No!" you'll never convince anyone to do the right thing.

[The Grand Nudger]

-there aren't other positions.... if you ask the anti-wokeness brigade. Anything unwoke is rampant wokeness.

It's not, never was, and they're already familiar with it as agents of it past and present....and should understand that, imo.

[Mermaid]

It doesn't hurt anyone and inclusivity is a documented way to increase productivity and innovation.

I don't get the complaining about it. If you don't want to specify your pronouns or use those someone else wants to be addressed as, don't.