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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 12:30 pm
(June 10, 2021 at 12:28 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: (June 10, 2021 at 12:22 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If god has the ability to create any kind of world he wants from an infinite number of possibilities, including a world where I’m a saved theist instead of an atheist, and he chooses to create this world where I’m an atheist, then I’m literally being forced to his will. That’s the opposite of free will. The only one who has free will in that scenario is god.
True. But perhaps God doesn't have free will either.  Not much of a god then, is he?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 12:30 pm
I just got here, Who is Will and where is he being kept?! #FreeWill
"For the only way to eternal glory is a life lived in service of our Lord, FSM; Verily it is FSM who is the perfect being the name higher than all names, king of all kings and will bestow upon us all, one day, The great reclaiming" -The Prophet Boiardi-
Conservative trigger warning.
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 12:32 pm
(June 10, 2021 at 12:30 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: I just got here, Who is Will and where is he being kept?! #FreeWill
He’s in the Upside Down.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 12:56 pm
(June 10, 2021 at 12:22 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If god has the ability to create any kind of world he wants from an infinite number of possibilities, including a world where I’m a saved theist instead of an atheist, and he chooses to create this world where I’m an atheist, then I’m literally being forced to his will. That’s the opposite of free will. The only one who has free will in that scenario is god.
In your formulation, you are begging the absence of free will, you say "And he chooses to create this world where I’m an atheist, then I’m literally being forced to his will", well no, he chooses to create the world where you do what your free will leads you to. If you say "he chooses to create X" without mentioning that he also wanted us to have free will, then duh, you're already excluding free will from God's plan, thus no free will.
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 1:02 pm
(This post was last modified: June 10, 2021 at 1:03 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(June 10, 2021 at 12:56 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: (June 10, 2021 at 12:22 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If god has the ability to create any kind of world he wants from an infinite number of possibilities, including a world where I’m a saved theist instead of an atheist, and he chooses to create this world where I’m an atheist, then I’m literally being forced to his will. That’s the opposite of free will. The only one who has free will in that scenario is god.
In your formulation, you are begging the absence of free will, you say "And he chooses to create this world where I’m an atheist, then I’m literally being forced to his will", well no, he chooses to create the world where you do what your free will leads you to. If you say "he chooses to create X" without mentioning that he also wanted us to have free will, then duh, you're already excluding free will from God's plan, thus no free will.
So, god couldn’t have created a world where everyone’s free will leads them to the right religion? Why not? I thought god was omniscient and omnipotent.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 1:20 pm
(This post was last modified: June 10, 2021 at 1:22 pm by purplepurpose.)
(June 10, 2021 at 1:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (June 10, 2021 at 12:56 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: In your formulation, you are begging the absence of free will, you say "And he chooses to create this world where I’m an atheist, then I’m literally being forced to his will", well no, he chooses to create the world where you do what your free will leads you to. If you say "he chooses to create X" without mentioning that he also wanted us to have free will, then duh, you're already excluding free will from God's plan, thus no free will.
So, god couldn’t have created a world where everyone’s free will leads them to the right religion? Why not? I thought god was omniscient and omnipotent. God gives of vibes of Ceasar who enjoys a good gladiator match. "I will test them and see who really wants to follow my perfect and holy law, despite the hardships. The rest who dare to refuse my grace can burn"..
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 1:21 pm
(June 10, 2021 at 1:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, god couldn’t have created a world where everyone’s free will leads them to the right religion? Why not? I thought god was omniscient and omnipotent.
The sentence in bold already contradicts free will. I've seen this type of questions before: can God create a stone so heavy he can't lift? Like, LOL.
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 1:24 pm
(This post was last modified: June 10, 2021 at 1:37 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(June 10, 2021 at 1:21 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: (June 10, 2021 at 1:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, god couldn’t have created a world where everyone’s free will leads them to the right religion? Why not? I thought god was omniscient and omnipotent.
The sentence in bold already contradicts free will. I've seen this type of questions before: can God create a stone so heavy he can't lift? Like, LOL.
I don’t think you considered the question closely enough. If god knows me, then he knows what would convince me that he exists, and if he’s all-powerful, he should be able to create a world where he is capable of convincing me that he exists based on his knowledge of me. If he can do that for me, he can do that everyone. Why didn’t he?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 1:37 pm
(This post was last modified: June 10, 2021 at 1:41 pm by R00tKiT.)
(June 10, 2021 at 1:24 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I don’t think you considered the question closely enough. If god knows me, then he knows what would convince me that he exists, and if he’s all-powerful, he should be able to create a world where he is capable of convincing me that he exists. If he can do that for me, he can do that everyone. Why didn’t he?
The world you're describing already exists. Because there are believers who are absolutely convinced that god exists, this world already satisfies your requirements. But not being convinced isn't problem per se, no religion -not Islam, in any case- says that people who genuinely seek for the truth and can't find it/not convinced of what they find will be punished by hellfire. What would be considered punishable is to decline accepting the truth despite being convinced of it. If someone absolutely knows the danger of smoking, but proceeds to chain-smoke anyway then die because of it, they only have themselves to blame, not God's foreknoweldge......
I would also add that no one can have a coherent view of the world if they don't accept God's existence. Some theologians argue that God's existence has the same status as belief in other minds or in an external world. But I admit it's a subject of debate.
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RE: Why God doesn't stop satan?
June 10, 2021 at 1:57 pm
(This post was last modified: June 10, 2021 at 1:59 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(June 10, 2021 at 1:37 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: (June 10, 2021 at 1:24 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I don’t think you considered the question closely enough. If god knows me, then he knows what would convince me that he exists, and if he’s all-powerful, he should be able to create a world where he is capable of convincing me that he exists. If he can do that for me, he can do that everyone. Why didn’t he?
I would also add that no one can have a coherent view of the world if they don't accept God's existence.
How does belief in the existence of a god make your worldview more coherent than mine?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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