Alec Baldwin Shooting

[brewer]

I can see both sides. And I see failure everywhere on this one.

Prop gun does not mean fake gun, toy gun, it's simply short for property. Maybe the entire industry does not take gun safety seriously enough. I wonder how often they give other potentially lethal 'props' to actors without providing safety training. Apparently Baldwin had none.

[zwanzig]

The thing that gets me is that on this particular set, they'd already had like 3 other accidental discharges due to the incompetence of this production. I agree that if it were just this once, Mr. Baldwin isn't expected to assume anything other than what the expert, who's only job on set is to determine weapon safety and handle the weapons, has said and he isn't responsible. It was an accident. But this happened 3 times already? When does Baldwin become responsible? When exactly is he expected to be like, "This set is unsafe and I either need to demand better conditions or at least be in charge of myself." I mean, is this normal? Does he work in cutting corners productions all the time and it just didn't enter his awareness? Or is he so egotistical that he assumed he would be luckier than he turned out to be?

I mean, it's easy enough to see the uncharitable take in "He shoulda done this and this!" But prior knowledge of 3 accidents with weapons already? It's gotta make sense at some point.

[brewer]

I can see both sides. And I see failure everywhere on this one.

Prop gun does not mean fake gun, toy gun, it's simply short for property. Maybe the entire industry does not take gun safety seriously enough. I wonder how often they give other potentially lethal 'props' to actors without providing safety training. Apparently Baldwin had none.

The thing that gets me is that on this particular set, they'd already had like 3 other accidental discharges due to the incompetence of this production. I agree that if it were just this once, Mr. Baldwin isn't expected to assume anything other than what the expert, who's only job on set is to determine weapon safety and handle the weapons, has said and he isn't responsible. It was an accident. But this happened 3 times already? When does Baldwin become responsible? When exactly is he expected to be like, "This set is unsafe and I either need to demand better conditions or at least be in charge of myself." I mean, is this normal? Does he work in cutting corners productions all the time and it just didn't enter his awareness? Or is he so egotistical that he assumed he would be luckier than he turned out to be?

I mean, it's easy enough to see the uncharitable take in "He shoulda done this and this!" But prior knowledge of 3 accidents with weapons already? It's gotta make sense at some point.

I'm not convinced 'accident' removes all responsibility, just changes the degree.

Let's consider a car crash. If I injure someone in a car accident and it was caused by my maintenance negligence, my degree of responsibility would be in question. If the negligence was cause by the person I hired to maintain the car caused the crash then there is a degree of separation. Did I hire someone reputable, low budget, an unknown from the yellow pages? (yeah I know, old fart reference)

If I just bought a used car, didn't check it's reliability and then crashed, different degree of responsibility. If I got a car and just took off with had no driver safety/training, different.

Also, I wonder how much Baldwin knew about all that was going on at the set. Did he drop in for his scenes and then bounce out remaining blissfully ignorant? Did the crew not tell or hide things? I don't know how involved producers are in the day to day activities, I expect some are relatively absent. Has he said that he knew about the prior accidents? I do agree that as a producer he'll be found liable in one way or another.

How ever it shakes out, whatever the circumstances, I doubt I'll find much sympathy for Baldwin. A life was taken under his watch.

[onlinebiker]

The guy Cheyne shot later DIED from complications of the trauma of being shot.


He should have gone to prison. Probably for several years more than Baldwin should do.

Reason - he KNEW he was firing live ammo.

Actually, he’s still alive.

Boru

*****

Ninja’d.

You are correct.

But you can see how I could mis- remember that. 

When Someone shoots a lawyer - people get hopeful.

[Spongebob]

One that springs to mind is the episode where they "investigated" the strength of RATO packs on aircraft. The found a guy who was willing to provide them with rockets strapped onto the roof of a mid-'60s Chevrolet to help it accelerate on the course they chose. Supplying rockets for that sort of thing is unlawful. I'm surprised that charges weren't filed. As a member of the National Association of Rocketry in years past, anyone storing over some amount of propellant was required to have a Low Explosives Users Permit. That BATFE ruling was eventually struck down because the particular propellant to be controlled was APCP, which the used grain size was far below the detonation size of about 1000 pounds. One has to qualify for use of rocket propellant on a three-level requirement for the amount of propellant used. The guy skated around those rules by using experimental fuel. Those guys took their, and the people around them, lives in their own hands.

I didn't remember this episode so I did some searching.  For some reason every reference I found to it called it a JATO car, but I wouldn't describe what they were using as a jet.  It was definitely a rocket.  Could the laws be different state by state or is that a federal thing?  Do you think they might have acquired the proper permits to use the devices?  And I wouldn't say they're setup was unsafe, at least not when the rockets were fired.  The cast and crew were a good distance away and behind a shield.  I suppose you could argue just handling the fuel is risky but I don't know much about the stability of that fuel.  They guys did work in the special effects industry, so using explosives wouldn't be new to them.

---

The thing that gets me is that on this particular set, they'd already had like 3 other accidental discharges due to the incompetence of this production. I agree that if it were just this once, Mr. Baldwin isn't expected to assume anything other than what the expert, who's only job on set is to determine weapon safety and handle the weapons, has said and he isn't responsible. It was an accident. But this happened 3 times already? When does Baldwin become responsible? When exactly is he expected to be like, "This set is unsafe and I either need to demand better conditions or at least be in charge of myself." I mean, is this normal? Does he work in cutting corners productions all the time and it just didn't enter his awareness? Or is he so egotistical that he assumed he would be luckier than he turned out to be?

I mean, it's easy enough to see the uncharitable take in "He shoulda done this and this!" But prior knowledge of 3 accidents with weapons already? It's gotta make sense at some point.

I think you may be on to something there.  It may well be an attitude problem with the industry itself.  That's just speculation on my part; I have no knowledge regarding this.  But I do know that if safety isn't taken very seriously, then it basically falls into the same pot as everything else and the most critical thing becomes the thing that gets the most attention, bet it budget or schedule or pampering the star.  When I read that people used prop guns for target practice during downtime, that set off some alarms for me.  It means that the firearms aren't taken as seriously as I would expect.  What if two ding dongs went out to shoot a few Coke cans and one of them "accidentally" shot the other?  The production would be liable.  So, when I view this from the context of industry, absolutely no horseplay is acceptable and anything dangerous is carefully managed.  Imagine a mining operation where explosives are used almost every day.  Two yahoos decide they are going to go off site with a few sticks of TNT and have some fun.  They would be fired and likely banned from the industry.

[zwanzig]

I think you may be on to something there.  It may well be an attitude problem with the industry itself.  That's just speculation on my part; I have no knowledge regarding this.  But I do know that if safety isn't taken very seriously, then it basically falls into the same pot as everything else and the most critical thing becomes the thing that gets the most attention, bet it budget or schedule or pampering the star.  When I read that people used prop guns for target practice during downtime, that set off some alarms for me.  It means that the firearms aren't taken as seriously as I would expect.  What if two ding dongs went out to shoot a few Coke cans and one of them "accidentally" shot the other?  The production would be liable.  So, when I view this from the context of industry, absolutely no horseplay is acceptable and anything dangerous is carefully managed.  Imagine a mining operation where explosives are used almost every day.  Two yahoos decide they are going to go off site with a few sticks of TNT and have some fun.  They would be fired and likely banned from the industry.

I had a very similar train of thought that playing with the gun they were using for the scenes seemed like it was just asking for trouble. Maybe it might take Alec Baldwin getting in serious shit about this in order for things to change? Then again, how often does this happen and we just don't hear about it?

[arewethereyet]

I think you may be on to something there.  It may well be an attitude problem with the industry itself.  That's just speculation on my part; I have no knowledge regarding this.  But I do know that if safety isn't taken very seriously, then it basically falls into the same pot as everything else and the most critical thing becomes the thing that gets the most attention, bet it budget or schedule or pampering the star.  When I read that people used prop guns for target practice during downtime, that set off some alarms for me.  It means that the firearms aren't taken as seriously as I would expect.  What if two ding dongs went out to shoot a few Coke cans and one of them "accidentally" shot the other?  The production would be liable.  So, when I view this from the context of industry, absolutely no horseplay is acceptable and anything dangerous is carefully managed.  Imagine a mining operation where explosives are used almost every day.  Two yahoos decide they are going to go off site with a few sticks of TNT and have some fun.  They would be fired and likely banned from the industry.

I had a very similar train of thought that playing with the gun they were using for the scenes seemed like it was just asking for trouble. Maybe it might take Alec Baldwin getting in serious shit about this in order for things to change? Then again, how often does this happen and we just don't hear about it?

The last big one was Brandon Lee and that was nearly 30 years ago. The rules may change a bit but getting people to follow them is the issue. Memories tend to be short. I'm sure there are lots on on set accidents we never hear a peep about.

[Rev. Rye]

I can see both sides. And I see failure everywhere on this one.

Prop gun does not mean fake gun, toy gun, it's simply short for property. Maybe the entire industry does not take gun safety seriously enough. I wonder how often they give other potentially lethal 'props' to actors without providing safety training. Apparently Baldwin had none.

I know Michael Mann tends to train his actors in how to use the guns they’ll be firing, but he’s the only director I know who does.

[Spongebob]

I had a very similar train of thought that playing with the gun they were using for the scenes seemed like it was just asking for trouble. Maybe it might take Alec Baldwin getting in serious shit about this in order for things to change? Then again, how often does this happen and we just don't hear about it?

The last big one was Brandon Lee and that was nearly 30 years ago.  The rules may change a bit but getting people to follow them is the issue.  Memories tend to be short.  I'm sure there are lots on on set accidents we never hear a peep about.

All valid points.  For whatever reason, people, Americans for sure, tend to put things off until something extreme forces a change.

[Neo-Scholastic]

I can see both sides. And I see failure everywhere on this one.

Prop gun does not mean fake gun, toy gun, it's simply short for property. Maybe the entire industry does not take gun safety seriously enough. I wonder how often they give other potentially lethal 'props' to actors without providing safety training. Apparently Baldwin had none.

The auditors for the studios liability insurance, the union lawyers, and similar interested parties probably have a say in who's "responsible" and who's to "blame"...And those aren't always the same people.