Destruction of self confidence

[emjay]

Catholics and protestants both agree that man is a fallen creature. Hell, the protestants are the ones who took it to the nth on that issue.

Yeah, I know that, it just wasn't given the same emphasis, or at least not in the same way, in the sort of Christianity I was brought up in... I guess because it tended to focus on the positive side rather than the negative... for instance I don't think they talked about hell much... it was more focusing on your personal relationship with Christ and all that.

[The Grand Nudger]

Because people stopped teaching their children the religion they hoped to impose upon others by law. Interesting stuff.

It's almost as if they knew it was heinous bullshit when it came to their own kids.

[emjay]

Because people stopped teaching their children the religion they hoped to impose upon others by law. Interesting stuff.

It's almost as if they knew it was heinous bullshit when it came to their own kids.

Well, just because it wasn't made particularly explicit for me as a kid, didn't make it any less real to me..
because of my imagination. For instance I had nightmares for months and was pretty much inconsolable when I thought I had committed the unforgivable sin. So if it looks like I'm defending this I'm not... indoctrination is bad in any guise... and is why I will always be opposed, in principle, to any kind of religious school, or teaching by parents, that teaches as fact something that is only belief/opinion and doesn't make any attempt to distinguish between the two.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't think you're defending it at all, I'm just noticing how amusing it is that even christian parents wouldn't advocate it or defend it..except insomuch as they actively tried to impose it on other peoples kids.

Contemporary christians have been going through a crisis of faith, refusing to be as shitty to their own as they insist we must be to others. Like some jewish shaman once suggested, they'll stand as their own prosecution come the day of judgement.

[emjay]

I don't think you're defending it at all, I'm just noticing how amusing it is that even christian parents wouldn't advocate it or defend it..except insomuch as they actively tried to impose it on other peoples kids.

Contemporary christians have been going through a crisis of faith, refusing to be as shitty to their own as they insist we must be to others. Like some jewish shaman once suggested, they'll stand as their own prosecution come the day of judgement.

Well I have to say I don't personally feel it's that much like that in our country (Britain)... I may be wrong but Christianity is pretty marginal here I'd say, and doesn't have much affect on legislation. The picture painted of the US is bleak, and tbh I wouldn't want to live there on account of it, like if in the US people don't stand much chance of getting into office unless they're a Christian, in the UK it's nothing like that... Christian politicians (or at least 'out' ones) are or at least seem to be in the minority. In other words there doesn't seem to be anywhere near the level of Christian lobbying in the UK as there is in America. But yeah, I am really sorry that it is the case for you guys that religion does have so much sway in your country. The oppression it leads to is a horrible thought.

[brewer]

To be honest I was the good little lutheran soldier bot until I reached my age of defiance.

I don't think it would take much prompting for me to regurgitate the nicene creed after 50+ years.

Sorry, I had to look that up... Lutheran is Protestant? But nicene creed is Catholic? Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Basically if I was to try and describe the sort of Protestantism I grew up it's basically the complete opposite of ritual... what you call 'happy clappy' churches... ones where even having a church building is considered not a great thing (ie because of graven images etc), so the church is more defined as the group of people rather than the building.

Evangelical lutheran was basically catholic light.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well I have to say I don't personally feel it's that much like that in our country (Britain)... I may be wrong but Christianity is pretty marginal here I'd say, and doesn't have much affect on legislation. The picture painted of the US is bleak, and tbh I wouldn't want to live there on account of it, like if in the US people don't stand much chance of getting into office unless they're a Christian, in the UK it's nothing like that... Christian politicians (or at least 'out' ones) are or at least seem to be in the minority. In other words there doesn't seem to be anywhere near the level of Christian lobbying in the UK as there is in America. But yeah, I am really sorry that it is the case for you guys that religion does have so much sway in your country. The oppression it leads to is a horrible thought.

You're just a few years ahead of us in the self immolation of supposed christian values, is all.

It's performative here, too...and it was performative in the uk for quite some time before any pretense was dropped, such as it has been.

I do think it's amusing..though, that when we dickpunched creationism in the courts here in the us..they went to the UK. From one point of view that's a desperate export..from another, a hilarious import. Still, remember...it's not as if our culture wasn't predicate on your own. The shit we have with regards to christendom isn't exactly native. Nowadays, though, christianity holds no effective or practical sway in the households of american christians (as their own witchdoctors never tire of complaining to them about). They're some of the most uniquely unchristian motherfuckers on the planet. It's a good for thee but not me scenario. It's a cudgel, a wedge, not a way of life.

[emjay]

Well I have to say I don't personally feel it's that much like that in our country (Britain)... I may be wrong but Christianity is pretty marginal here I'd say, and doesn't have much affect on legislation. The picture painted of the US is bleak, and tbh I wouldn't want to live there on account of it, like if in the US people don't stand much chance of getting into office unless they're a Christian, in the UK it's nothing like that... Christian politicians (or at least 'out' ones) are or at least seem to be in the minority. In other words there doesn't seem to be anywhere near the level of Christian lobbying in the UK as there is in America. But yeah, I am really sorry that it is the case for you guys that religion does have so much sway in your country. The oppression it leads to is a horrible thought.

You're just a few years ahead of us in the self immolation of supposed christian values, is all.

It's performative here, too...and it was performative in the uk for quite some time before any pretense was dropped, such as it has been.

I do think it's amusing..though, that when we dickpunched creationism in the courts here in the us..they went to the UK. From one point of view that's a desperate export..from another, a hilarious import. Still, remember...it's not as if our culture wasn't predicate on your own. The shit we have with regards to christendom isn't exactly native. Nowadays, though, christianity holds no effective or practical sway in the households of american christians (as their own witchdoctors never tire of complaining to them about). They're some of the most uniquely unchristian motherfuckers on the planet. It's a good for thee but not me scenario. It's a cudgel, a wedge, not a way of life.

FWIW I'm sorry for what our country gave your country It's not a competition though, or at least I hope it's not; mistakes were made on all sides, and generally I think of the colonisation of the Americas by any of the European powers, and all the injustice that went with it - especially how the natives were treated - as being a very dark period of history.

[The Grand Nudger]

Just another day on earth, really, it's only a tragedy if we perpetuate it. I prefer to think about the less doom and gloom aspect. Of a situation in which a bunch of people who don't actually believe in a thing keep forcing others to deal with that thing even as they privately reject it for their own. Not because it even speaks to them....but because through that very performative act itself and nothing more, fear the combined weight of their peers reprisal should they be the first who pipe up and says what they're all thinking.

With respect to the abuses of christian belief..as it just so happens...godless heathens are now and have always been the actual conscience of their faithful compatriots. For whatever reason, they can't keep themselves honest. Instead, they all march along to a disastrous fiction that they know in their hearts, and plainly evidenced by how they treat those they personally know and love..to be a lie.

There is no hell like there were never witches. We're not worms and don't believe ourselves to be worms..just as the faithful do not believe that the god they profess is great.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Catholics and protestants both agree that man is a fallen creature.  Hell, the protestants are the ones who took it to the nth on that issue.

Yeah, I know that, it just wasn't given the same emphasis, or at least not in the same way, in the sort of Christianity I was brought up in... I guess because it tended to focus on the positive side rather than the negative... for instance I don't think they talked about hell much... it was more focusing on your personal relationship with Christ and all that.

 I was raised catholic. It's pretty mechanical, all about obeying rules and constant ritual. Eg prayer in the formulaic way of the rosary. Rosary beads are divide into 'decades; 10 Hail Mary's and an our father. Say enough and you can earn a plenary indulgence, which is a get out of hell free card, Then there's confession and the other six sacraments. Central is the Mass. Catholics are taught that during the mass, the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus. Conveniently, appearance, texture, taste , does not change. That teaching was just one of the causes of the Protestant Reformation.

Protestants tend to be more Bible focussed. Each man is left to interpret the bible in his own way.  At my Catholic school, we were actively discouraged from reading the bible. The church interpreted the bible for us. That's why there's such a conflict between Catholic and protestant reformation about some topics. EG did Jesus have a brother? Catholics 'no', his mother Mary remained a  virgin. Protestants 'Yes',  he had four;  James, Joses, James and Judas. (according to the gospels of Matthew and Mark). Also apparently sisters,  but these are not identified in the Bible.