Destruction of self confidence

[emjay]

I don't know how to follow that, so I won't even try... thanks for sharing

[arewethereyet]

Dad was Catholic and mom is not. But to be married by a Catholic priest (which was important to dad's family, if not to him) meant that mom had to agree that any kids born of them would be raised Catholic.

Sort of weird as religion was seldom discussed at home beyond planning for the next big church event...baptism, first communion, confirmation...etc.

Even my Catholic grandparents didn't talk about it much. There was a holy water font at the top of the stairs at their house for you to make the sign of the cross before bed and before going downstairs in the morning (I guess upstairs required more blessing). Grandma's biggest concern was finding hats to wear to church...boy, did she have a collection of fancy hats - think royal family fancy.

Sending us kids to Catholic school was seen as a sound business decision as most, if not all, dad's clients were good church-going Catholics.

It was like some strange game we played along with.

I have a difficult time understanding what it is like to have been truly indoctrinated into a set of religious beliefs since I always felt like we were just going through the motions because that's what you do.

[Fake Messiah]

Grandma's biggest concern was finding hats to wear to church...boy, did she have a collection of fancy hats - think royal family fancy.

Is it because women must cover their heads in the church?

I remember 11 years ago, Roger Ebert wrote about his aunt and mom going to church and covering their heads

"Mary, give me one of your Kleenexes," my mother told my aunt one morning long ago when we were entering Holy Cross Church. She held a bobby pin in her lips, reached up to part her hair, and fixed the Kleenex on top of her head. My Aunt Mary already had her handkerchief in place.

"Why do you have to do that?" I asked.

"Because we are going into the house of the Lord," my mother explained, "and we have to spare him from the sight of us."

"But why?"

"It's because we're women, honey," Aunt Mary said.

And he ended the blogpost with the question:

"Is it good for the world to consider women as an inferior form, as all religions do?"

[arewethereyet]

Grandma's biggest concern was finding hats to wear to church...boy, did she have a collection of fancy hats - think royal family fancy.

Is it because women must cover their heads in the church?

I remember 11 years ago, Roger Ebert wrote about his aunt and mom going to church and covering their heads

"Mary, give me one of your Kleenexes," my mother told my aunt one morning long ago when we were entering Holy Cross Church. She held a bobby pin in her lips, reached up to part her hair, and fixed the Kleenex on top of her head. My Aunt Mary already had her handkerchief in place.

"Why do you have to do that?" I asked.

"Because we are going into the house of the Lord," my mother explained, "and we have to spare him from the sight of us."

"But why?"

"It's because we're women, honey," Aunt Mary said.

And he ended the blogpost with the question:

"Is it good for the world to consider women as an inferior form, as all religions do?"

All of us girls had a little plastic pouch that snapped closed and contained a thing that looked like a small, delicate doily and two bobby pins. Yes, the head had to be covered to enter the church. We all had these nifty little things that just happened to fit perfectly into the pockets of our school uniform skirts...ya know we had to cover our heads before our weekly march to confession and to go sing funeral dirges for the families who wanted the childrens choir.

My paternal grandmother was very tall. Her hats were big and matched her church dresses. When we had an estate sale after the deaths of both grandparents a couple large bags of very extravagent hats were sold for a pretty nice price.

[brewer]

..... dad's clients were good church-going Catholics.

For my parents it appeared to be exactly this, more business and being with the city 'in crowd' than it ever was about religion. Yet they still tried to throw a fit when I left.

[arewethereyet]

..... dad's clients were good church-going Catholics.

For my parents it appeared to be exactly this, more business and being with the city 'in crowd' than it ever was about religion. Yet they still tried to throw a fit when I left.

Dad actually admitted this to me before he died and said he wished he had let me go to the public school like I had begged to do for years. I think making the three of us kids go to Catholic school was a way to sort of detract from the fact he married a non-Catholic and basically an outsider.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't know how to follow that, so I won't even try... thanks for sharing

Ever the self immolater. 

I shared, in part...to get it off my chest.  My parents, my real parents, are dying.   To give you a picture of how trying to adhere to the traditional standards offers no real protection from what I think you might have experienced.  You probably have some nugget of wisdom that I don't, as a consequence of how I've been seeking out that standard designation for so long with no reason, no real self possessed and undeniable reason, to do so.  You're not the one following something in this.  That's me, and all that my response was?  My own effort to deserve the candor you've expressed.

So, what's up, what gives, tell me how to untie my own knot by reference to your past experience you bastard.  Who do I have to fucking kill to get the benefit of your wisdom?  Just point and nod. 

(I'm only kidding, btw, except for the pointing and nodding thing.... they'll be dead before you could help me even if you had the answers)

You mention that being able to discuss aquinas and the five ways has, in some sense, rehabilitated this relationship for you. Well, I've never found anything, and can't think of anything, that could do the same for me. I'm staring down the barrel of other people's mortality having chased their approval and still looking for a way to get it in all of the ways they always wanted me to and I've never actually done anything else in that respect. Even though those same people look at me and look at everyone else and see subhumans in others where they see virtue in me...and even if they had another decade for us to hash it out...and even with all of my own history of seeking in the approved manner as a stepping stool...I can't see it happening.

[emjay]

I don't know how to follow that, so I won't even try... thanks for sharing

Ever the self immolater. 

I shared, in part...to get it off my chest.  My parents, my real parents, are dying.   To give you a picture of how trying to adhere to the traditional standards offers no real protection from what I think you might have experienced.  You probably have some nugget of wisdom that I don't, as a consequence of how I've been seeking out that standard designation for so long with no reason, no real self possessed and undeniable reason, to do so.  You're not the one following something in this.  That's me, and all that my response was?  My own effort to deserve the candor you've expressed.

So, what's up, what gives, tell me how to untie my own knot by reference to your past experience you bastard.  Who do I have to fucking kill to get the benefit of your wisdom?   Just point and nod. 

(I'm only kidding, btw, except for the pointing and nodding thing.... they'll be dead before you could help me even if you had the answers)

You mention that being able to discuss aquinas and the five ways has, in some sense, rehabilitated this relationship for you.  Well, I've never found anything, and can't think of anything, that could do the same for me.  I'm staring down the barrel of other people's mortality having chased their approval and still looking for a way to get it in all of the ways they always wanted me to and I've never actually done anything else in that respect.  Even though those same people look at me and look at everyone else and see subhumans in others where they see virtue in me...and even if they had another decade for us to hash it out...and even with all of my own history of seeking in the approved manner as a stepping stool...I can't see it happening.

There were many reasons I didn't think I could follow your post, not least because I've realised how poetically/metaphorically... for want of better words, you write, and how similar it was to reading Plato for instance, ie layered like an onion ... where every time I read your posts, I get a new perspective/understanding from it. So for what seems to be a very serious subject, I was worried about misunderstanding some crucial point. Another reason was that although we may have some shared experience here, in a sense, we're also vastly different; you're a man of the world - an ex-soldier and family man - and I'm basically not; very little life experience and still living with my parents in my forties... we couldn't be more different, so I'm doubtful how useful anything I could say would be, but I'll try.

As I said, I may have misunderstood, but the picture you seem to be painting seems very unique, and almost like a Trojan Horse or 'fake it till you make it' upbringing... like mine but kind of inverted?  But just to be clear, were your parents atheists or not? Just trying to understand the seemingingly skeptical/cynical nature behind what you were taught. And then on top of that there's the other issue of your daughter's gender issues, and your own issues with them... which I guess you see as similar to me and my dad, with you in my dad's place and your daughter in mine?

So what can I say? The first obvious thing is that I can have a relationship like this with my parents because I still live with them, whereas you don't, so that's necessarily going to lead to differences in the type of the relationship. My kind of relationship with them is basically friendship, we joke around together and talk a lot, but that obviously is not really possible if you don't live with them. You could also say my life has kind of moulded more towards what they would have wanted... or as we're putting it, that which produces the less conflict and thus potentially cognitive dissonance, ie when I was younger I went to gay clubs a lot more than I do now. But that said, it's not all been one way, as like I said, little steps; I remember going to my first Pride march and thinking about how I was going to broach the subject with my parents... I could either be my usual unassertive self, or I could be assertive... I chose the latter and said firmly and matter of factly, leaving no room for argument 'I'm going to this event', rather than basically asking permission, and surprisingly my dad accepted it without argument. So I guess what I'm saying is we've both compromised in our little ways, over the years. I don't know if that can relate at all to how you relate to your daughter?

As to your parents, and trying to find that bridge, in my case I will never be a traditional success story for my parent's sake, eg I'm never going to get married or give them grandkids, and they know and accept that... but they still love me, even if our family line ends right here, as they've said. All four of my grandparents are dead, so we've been through all the pain of that, and are now our own little unit (as well as my sister, who doesn't live at home) just as how you're talking about how it will be once they have passed. That little unit though, I think in some sense makes you stronger... ie this may be the end of our family line, but we've only got each other now, and going through all that grieving, and helping my parents grieve, brought us closer together. So for one thing, you've got your own family unit now, and I'm sure your parents are very proud of you for that (more than I could ever provide as I said). But if there are still other bridges to mend, I don't know if anything I've said can help? Parents love their kids, it's as simple as that really; I'm no success story, religious expectations or otherwise, but I know my parents love me... I'm sure yours do too. And even if you can't mend some bridges, as I said, you've got your own little unit now to think about. One of the last memories I have of one of my grandads was him looking at me disapprovingly for interrupting a conversation... I wish I could mend that bridge, but I can't... but the focus is now on our little unit.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Grandma's biggest concern was finding hats to wear to church...boy, did she have a collection of fancy hats - think royal family fancy.

Is it because women must cover their heads in the church?

I remember 11 years ago, Roger Ebert wrote about his aunt and mom going to church and covering their heads

"Mary, give me one of your Kleenexes," my mother told my aunt one morning long ago when we were entering Holy Cross Church. She held a bobby pin in her lips, reached up to part her hair, and fixed the Kleenex on top of her head. My Aunt Mary already had her handkerchief in place.

"Why do you have to do that?" I asked.

"Because we are going into the house of the Lord," my mother explained, "and we have to spare him from the sight of us."

"But why?"

"It's because we're women, honey," Aunt Mary said.

And he ended the blogpost with the question:

"Is it good for the world to consider women as an inferior form, as all religions do?"

Yes, women were required to cover their hair in church***. I think that practice was phased out after Vatican 2. Meant to invigorate the church, it was far too little far too late.

I was brought up devout Irish Catholic. Imo, this was the most superstitious, pig ignorant, dogmatic and hateful form of a pernicious religion. In my lifetime the major difference I've noticed is a greater depth of systemic mendacity, going to the very top.

My mother was not catholic when she and dad were married .(she converted 25 years later and was the finest catholic person I've ever known)

Mum had to take instruction and learn about her obligations. Those included promising to bring up any children Catholic. Because mum was not catholic, she wasn't deemed good enough to be married in front of the alter. Instead , the ceremony was conducted in the sacristy, the small side room the priest used to change  into his costume. 

***that was one of the most obvious signs of the deep misogyny of the church, which went back to Paul of Tarsus.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((90)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

It's probably hard for a person without a Catholic background to understand the dogmatic arrogance and misogyny of the church before Vatican 2. Let's just say that in comparison  today's pope and his cardinals are a bunch of left wing radicals.



"The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, commonly known as the Second Vatican Council, or Vatican II, was the 21st ecumenical council of the Roman Catholic Church. The council met in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome for four periods (or sessions), each lasting between 8 and 12 weeks, in the autumn of each of the four years 1962 to 1965. Preparation for the council took three years, from the summer of 1959 to the summer of 1962. The council was opened on 11 October 1962 by John XXIII (pope during the preparation and the first session), and was closed on 8 December 1965 by Paul VI (pope during the last three sessions, after the death of John XXIII on 3 June 1963).

The council produced sixteen teaching documents that proposed significant developments in doctrine and practice: an extensive reform of the liturgy, a renewed theology of the Church, of revelation and of the laity, a new approach to relations between the Church and the world, to ecumenism, to non-Christian religions and to religious freedom."

Second Vatican Council - Wikipedia

[The Grand Nudger]

  But just to be clear, were your parents atheists or not? 

No, no...belief wasn't really a contentious issue.  It was race, and, broadly, the politics of race and their bleedover into a more general hardcore social conservatism.

So what can I say? The first obvious thing is that I can have a relationship like this with my parents because I still live with them, whereas you don't, so that's necessarily going to lead to differences in the type of the relationship. My kind of relationship with them is basically friendship, we joke around together and talk a lot, but that obviously is not really possible if you don't live with them. You could also say my life has kind of moulded more towards what they would have wanted... or as we're putting it, that which produces the less conflict and thus potentially cognitive dissonance, ie when I was younger I went to gay clubs a lot more than I do now. But that said, it's not all been one way, as like I said, little steps; I remember going to my first Pride march and thinking about how I was going to broach the subject with my parents... I could either be my usual unassertive self, or I could be assertive... I chose the latter and said firmly and matter of factly, leaving no room for argument 'I'm going to this event', rather than basically asking permission, and surprisingly my dad accepted it without argument. So I guess what I'm saying is we've both compromised in our little ways, over the years. I don't know if that can relate at all to how you relate to your daughter?

It does.  Right now we're at the point where I remember to check myself when I would normally say "go get your sisters" or "where are the girls".  On her end, we've had to have a talk about how not every instance of someone using the wrong pronouns is meant to be or should be taken as a personal slight.  That, sometimes, it's just the way that a person talks, has always talked, unthinkingly speaks, or...for what it's worth..that they don't know and there's no reason they would.  That a cashier at the grocery store isn't insulting her gender identity.  You could say that she and I have made some compromise between us - but this doesn't reflect my own internal state.  I'd always rather it not be so and still hold out hope that it isn't.   She doesn't explode when I instinctively call her baby girl, and I try to remember not to do that.  

As to your parents, and trying to find that bridge, in my case I will never be a traditional success story for my parent's sake, eg I'm never going to get married or give them grandkids, and they know and accept that... but they still love me, even if our family line ends right here, as they've said. All four of my grandparents are dead, so we've been through all the pain of that, and are now our own little unit (as well as my sister, who doesn't live at home) just as how you're talking about how it will be once they have passed. That little unit though, I think in some sense makes you stronger... ie this may be the end of our family line, but we've only got each other now, and going through all that grieving, and helping my parents grieve, brought us closer together. So for one thing, you've got your own family unit now, and I'm sure your parents are very proud of you for that (more than I could ever provide as I said). But if there are still other bridges to mend, I don't know if anything I've said can help? Parents love their kids, it's as simple as that really; I'm no success story, religious expectations or otherwise, but I know my parents love me... I'm sure yours do too. And even if you can't mend some bridges, as I said, you've got your own little unit now to think about. One of the last memories I have of one of my grandads was him looking at me disapprovingly for interrupting a conversation... I wish I could mend that bridge, but I can't... but the focus is now on our little unit.

That's pretty much where I find myself with my parents  There's compromise between me and mine, but none between them and myself on the issues that put distance between us.  Hell, you mentioned my having kids - and yeah...that's part and parcel of how I was brought up and you'd think it would be a success condition..but..I gave them the wrong sort of kid right off the bat...and my next (and conceptually better) attempt isn't looking like it panned out all that great from their point of view either.  Spoiled, entitled, head buried in electronics rather than "hard work"..and far too socially liberal.  Heaven forfend I have to add queer to the list.  I'd say I'd never hear the end of it...but....

I suppose that, in the end, it may just be me wanting something I can't have.  Delicious irony. It's incredibly frustrating to want the approval of a person who's approval is predicate on doing and being things you can't do or be. Particularly uncompromising people, and especially when you know that there's love, and lots of it, going in both directions all the same. Then, there's the added kink of easily seeing my own kids and myself in this scenario in the not so distant future.