Russia and Ukraine

[Irreligious Atheist]

So let's tear apart our local Kremlin Gremlin excuses shall we

1. Ukraine is still winning and Russia are still idiots who have botched this invasion in every way they could.


2. Ukraine doesn't have to negotiate or give i single inch of its land to Russia and there is no Pro Russian Ukraine there are territories Russia stole from Ukraine and then tried to validate in a sham election where people "voted" at gunpoint. 


3. As for the Drone attack it's either a false flag or even if it isn't maybe there is nothing wrong with Russia getting a taste of its own medicine. And we will not be reconsidering sending weapons nor should we. 


4. China is irrelevant they are all bark and no bite. 


So these "papers" change nothing.

But the West told Ukraine that Ukraine was not allowed to do this kind of attack on Russia by drone, and especially on the Kremlin I would assume, if it was them, so clearly this does change things if this was Ukraine.

Ukraine understands and acknowledges behind the scenes that they will have to negotiate and give things up, Helios, and fairly soon at that. Did you miss the Pentagon papers that came out?

China is not irrelevant. They've drawn a red line. They should supply weapons to Russia. They should not let NATO grow stronger at their expense when they can do something about it.

You use papers in air quotes because you're a Blue Anoner. A socialist version of a Q-Anoner. All news that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions are ruled fake news by default. You needn't justify why you're calling it fake news or using the air quotes.

[The Grand Nudger]

Not allowed, lol. At least we're past bullshitting anyone over concern. This is what they should do, according to you.

[Irreligious Atheist]

So first we got the Pentagon papers that show Ukraine has no choice but to negotiate because they will run out of soldiers, and China is actually willing to arm Russia, and now someone is trying to drone strike the Kremlin? Zelensky or someone else or false flag, I do not know, but if this was Zelensky, giving him weapons was far dumber than arming Al Qaeda and ISIS as Zelensky is the greater threat to the planet.

It's a false-flag. Either that, or you need to believe that not one but two  people just happened to be taking cell-phone footage of the Kremlin ... between 2:30 and 3:00 AM local time. How lucky the Russians were to get a video record of it!

Here's what the ISW has to write about this nonsense:

Russia likely staged this attack in an attempt to bring the war home to a Russian domestic audience and set conditions for a wider societal mobilization. Several indicators suggest that the strike was internally conducted and purposefully staged. Russian authorities have recently taken steps to increase Russian domestic air defense capabilities, including within Moscow itself, and it is therefore extremely unlikely that two drones could have penetrated multiple layers of air defense and detonated or been shot down just over the heart of the Kremlin in a way that provided spectacular imagery caught nicely on camera. Geolocated imagery from January 2023 shows that Russian authorities have been placing Pantsir air defense systems near Moscow to create air defense circles around the city.[4] A strike that avoided detection and destruction by such air defense assets and succeeded in hitting as high-profile of a target as the Kremlin Senate Palace would be a significant embarrassment for Russia. The Kremlin’s immediate, coherent, and coordinated response to the incident suggests that the attack was internally prepared in such a way that its intended political effects outweigh its embarrassment. The Kremlin immediately accused Ukraine of conducting a terror attack, and Russian official responses coalesced rapidly around this accusation.[5] If the drone attack had not been internally staged it would have been a surprise event. It is very likely that the official Russian response would initially have been much more disorganized as Russian officials scrambled to generate a coherent narrative and offset the rhetorical implications of a clear informational embarrassment. The Kremlin has notably failed to generate a timely and coherent informational response to other military humiliations not of its own making, including the falls of Balakliya and Kherson City in September and November 2022.[6]

The rapid and coherent presentation of an official Russian narrative around the strike suggests that Russia staged this incident in close proximity to the May 9th Victory Day holiday in order to frame the war as existential to its domestic audience. The Kremlin may use the strike to justify either canceling or further limiting May 9th celebrations, actions that would likely augment the information effort framing the war in Ukraine as directly threatening Russian observance of revered historical events. ISW has previously assessed that Russia is employing an array of measures to frame the war in Ukraine as existential to Russia’s domestic audience and to prepare for wider societal mobilization.[7]

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgro...ct-updates

I'm in full truther mode too now about the drone attack, but just to play devil's advocate, I'm sure the Kremlin is one of the most photographed and videoed places on the planet, so that could explain why cell phone footage was taken, unlike the 1st twin tower where video was mostly absent. And of course, a few months back, Russia's nuclear triad was struck inside of Russia, and Nudge, who's military knowledge I respect, told me that would be pretty simple to pull off for Ukraine without the need of Western help. I know this is the Kremlin, so obviously that changes things a bit.

Would it be impossible for air defenses to allow a drone to get that close? I can't say, but like you say, it does sound unlikely. I like to remain agnostic about these things though when we have so little information at present. Is it impossible that this was Ukraine? Maybe not. What if the drones took flight while they were already inside of Russian airspace? Even an air defense like the US' could not stop the Pentagon and towers from being smashed into. And remember that old man who landed on the White House lawn I think it was in his quadcopter or whatever it's called, not long ago? This was post 9/11. He wasn't shot down by the US. An insurance policy was taken out on the twin towers right before it happened. Documents were destroyed at the Pentagon that helped them cover up the missing trillions of dollars easier. Conservatives said right before 9/11 that a Pearl Harbour like event would be perfect to carry out their military goals. Despite all of this, I do not believe that the US was involved in the 9/11 attacks against themselves, although there was the news recently that there may have been CIA assets among the 9/11 hijackers, and of course it was confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers were funded by the Saudi government. 


When the 9/11 truthers hear this news, you best bet that this is only going to confirm for them that 9/11 was an inside American job. My point is, we probably shouldn't say we know 100 % what happened, at least at this point. Bringing up things like May 9th and all of that makes sense in a vacuum, but this type of thing could be a coincidence, just like all of those 9/11 coincidences that I pointed out. Coincidences happen constantly, but of course we should keep our guards up and question everything coming from the Russian government.

[arewethereyet]

We should fund sending IA over to Putin. He can work as a military strategist.

[The Grand Nudger]

100% certain Putin is not dead and the building did not come down. The flimsy incompetence of the "attack" when they do..actually, have much more capable options, is a pretty hefty lift for russian propaganda. 9/11 probably isn't a great example. It's not that we couldn't have brought those planes down, we didn't want to. Full of people, unlike a drone...not that russia minds downing civilian aircraft full of people.

But lets go with it. Russian air defence was penetrated by firecrackers, good thing no one flung a fucking missile at them....huh.....

[Irreligious Atheist]

Good god..I missed that part of the bit.  Another great example of people's own stupidity shaming them.  Zelinskyy is a greater threat to the planet...in a post about what..... who..... might do?

What Putin might do to Ukraine. Not the planet.

[The Grand Nudger]

You think zelinsky is a greater threat to ukraine..then... than the man who's been invading ukraine for nearly a decade? Make this make sense IA. 0/10 for effort.

[Irreligious Atheist]

Broken rule again by the admin. Happy I didn't call you a mod?

What are your thoughts on Russia and Ukraine? You want me to post 8 hours straight about it without time to rest and hang out with family, or I'm scared of Nudge, who is admitting that his former position was wrong and that now it's a very rough situation for Ukraine?

Sorry, which rule was broken?

Boru

Flaming for no reason after I said nothing to her or did nothing to earn a flaming. Taking the thread off topic from Russia Ukraine to me being a piss ant, and bringing the thread into the mud and hurting the quality of the thread, so forum members get a lower quality thread to read, which I would think would be the exact opposite of what administrators want, but what do I know, right? There's two broken rules. Shall I go on?

It's cool though. She may continue. Just pointing out her hypocrisy. I don't want to report her and like I've said before, it would go against my principles to do so.

[arewethereyet]

Sorry, which rule was broken?

Boru

Flaming for no reason after I said nothing to her or did nothing to earn a flaming. Taking the thread off topic from Russia Ukraine to me being a piss ant, and bringing the thread into the mud and hurting the quality of the thread, so forum members get a lower quality thread to read, which I would think would be the exact opposite of what administrators want, but what do I know, right? There's two broken rules. Shall I go on?

It's cool though. She may continue. Just pointing out her hypocrisy. I don't want to report her and like I've said before, it would go against my principles to do so.

The quality of every thread is brought down by your presence.

Whine on.

[HappySkeptic]

This ineffective drone attack couldn't have been a better propaganda boon for Putin.

I'd say it was false flag, but the experts claim that Putin would not allow such an embarrassment on purpose.