Russia and Ukraine

[Thumpalumpacus]

I get a rather humorous vision of someone driving around with a machine gun mounted on top of a car like my Buick Encore.  Have to admit I wouldn't be expecting an old broad in a Buick would be a military threat.

I am very much enjoying the info on this thread...Thump and Nudger have real life experience with this sort of thing and I am fascinated!

My military days were spent in communications...even if I was trained for a combat environment it basically meant I would be working comm in a specially rigged vehicle...probably not a Buick.

To be clear, I wasn't a combat troop. My dumb ass was in the rear with the gear where I belonged; I was a fireman. I've read an awful lot over the years, that's all.

Also, I've dreamed of having a pintle-mounted .30 installed in the moonroof of my truck, remotely controlled from my gear-shifter.

[arewethereyet]

I get a rather humorous vision of someone driving around with a machine gun mounted on top of a car like my Buick Encore.  Have to admit I wouldn't be expecting an old broad in a Buick would be a military threat.

I am very much enjoying the info on this thread...Thump and Nudger have real life experience with this sort of thing and I am fascinated!

My military days were spent in communications...even if I was trained for a combat environment it basically meant I would be working comm in a specially rigged vehicle...probably not a Buick.

To be clear, I wasn't a combat troop. My dumb ass was in the rear with the gear where I belonged; I was a fireman. I've read an awful lot over the years, that's all.

Also, I've dreamed of having a pintle-mounted .30 installed in the moonroof of my truck, remotely controlled from my gear-shifter.

You are quite knowledgeable and I am learning a lot from you and Nudger.  I appreciate that.

[The Grand Nudger]

One of the significant problems with the btg structure...that prevents it from being a traditional maneuver unit (and russia is well aware of this, btw, the btg is supposed to be an intermediate step in their modernization)...is the lack of adequate support personnel. So...you know, nothing wrong with the guys in the rear - they do all the real work. Russia is having comms issues. Russia is having damage control issues, russia is having medical issues, food issues..on and on the list goes. I'd rather run across a field for twenty minutes once or twice a month than slave away fixing that trash praying to some eldritch god that the enemy arms havent slipped past my (mostly) inactive infantry buddies to murder me in my sleep.

Even if their infantry and their armor were well trained and well maintained - the way the ukranians are operating would still inflict mass casualties. Just as a handy reference...if ukraine was as well supplied as we are with the equipment they want - russia would have to inflict 10x the rate of armor casualties in an engagement to destroy a btc. 4x in ifvs, 2x in fire squads at the standard 30% (though it seems that russia is willing to lose damn near 50% before they admit they fucked it and cut). Then, if they managed that, they'd have to pursue and entirely eliminate a unit that's still twice it's size, resupplying and reconstituting as close as 50 miles from the initial engagement. The light vehicle insurgency shit the ukranians are doing is exactly why we use a btc. They're small enough to go fast, but big enough to be immune to getting whittled like the russians have been. That's why we had such staying power in our recent misadventures.

One party in the conflict learned from our mistakes, the other did not..or could not move beyond the intermediate organization before..for whatever reason, they felt compelled to attack.

[Angrboda]

One of the significant problems with the btg structure...that prevents it from being a traditional maneuver unit (and russia is well aware of this, btw, the btg is supposed to be an intermediate step in their modernization)...is the lack of adequate support personnel.   So...you know, nothing wrong with the guys in the rear - they do all the real work.   Russia is having comms issues.  Russia is having damage control issues, russia is having medical issues, food issues..on and on the list goes.  I'd rather run across a field for twenty minutes once or twice a month than slave away fixing that trash praying to some eldritch god that the enemy arms havent slipped past my (mostly) inactive infantry buddies to murder me in my sleep.

Even if their infantry and their armor were well trained and well maintained - the way the ukranians are operating would still inflict mass casualties.  Just as a handy reference...if ukraine was as well supplied as we are with the equipment they want - russia would have to inflict 10x the rate of armor casualties in an engagement to destroy a btc.  4x in ifvs, 2x in fire squads at the standard 30% (though it seems that russia is willing to lose damn near 50% before they admit they fucked it and cut).  Then, if they managed that, they'd have to pursue and entirely eliminate a unit that's still twice it's size, resupplying and reconstituting as close as 50 miles from the initial engagement.  The light vehicle insurgency shit the ukranians are doing is exactly why we use a btc.  They're small enough to go fast, but big enough to be immune to getting whittled like the russians have been.  That's why we had such staying power in our recent misadventures.  

One party in the conflict learned from our mistakes, the other did not..or could not move beyond the intermediate organization before..for whatever reason, they felt compelled to attack.

What is a BTC?

[The Grand Nudger]

BCT, my usual mess of typos. A brigade combat team. It's the us unit of comparison that people have been employing ever since russia invaded crimea. They suffered some tremendous defeats then, too, but they were isolated events. What it suggested then (and what it's cementing now) is that these russian units don't actually need to be joined directly, they can be raided to destruction pretty fast. Half of their combat power is tied up defending one third of the logistical ability of similar units.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You are quite knowledgeable and I am learning a lot from you and Nudger.  I appreciate that.

He sure knows his shit, because whereas I've read about this stuff, he's lived it.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

So, a question.

Might we see militaries moving more to 8X8 'Striker' type wheeled APC's?

Just how bad must terrain by that track laying is preferred?

WW I levels of devastation?

Cheers.

[The Grand Nudger]

More corrections. During the Battle of Debaltseve, july 2014 to feb 2015, a ukrainian mechanized brigade held on to a rail junction for the better part of five months while it was being encircled. This was used as leverage in the minsk 2 ceasefire negotiations. In the end, russia layed down a massive artillery barrage and made a full on push with t90s in the lead. Having been entirely cut off, the ukrainian brigade abandoned most of their heavy equipment and escaped through the woods. On foot.

The btgs and seperatists couldn't capitalize on this... despite being mechanized, and that ukrainian brigade reconstituted and formed a new defensive line a mere 30km away. They then went on to repel the numerically superior russian forces in a follow up advance until the russians flat out quit...and went back to leveling civilians homes.

This was the old dumpster fire ukrainian army doing this to them....at the time it was written off as damned near supernatural courage and level headed command decisions. It's more likely, with current events at hand, that a russian btg simply isn't effective past 30km from resupply.

---

-and if you wanna learn something cool you might not have expected, google Zubrowskis Raid. It was at the time the largest and longest armored raid behind enemy lines in recorded history.

[Thumpalumpacus]

At work.

 So, a question.

 Might we see militaries moving more to 8X8 'Striker' type wheeled APC's?

 Just how bad must terrain by that track laying is preferred?

 WW I levels of devastation?

 Cheers.

Even when the terrain isn't churned up by battle, Mother Nature can force wheeled vehicles to be road-bound, and in worse cases render even tracked units immobile off-road. Strikers and other APCs/wheeled recon vehicles will have a tougher time of it, but I don't see militaries abandoning tracked vehicles, simply because the latter are more capable of crossing KZs with shredded ground and constant incoming while providing a modicum of protection for the gun and crew.

If the roads aren't paved the problem gets worse.

[The Grand Nudger]

There's a slow and general push to replace tanks with ifvs - but not stryker..that's getting ditched. The us is going with the joint light strike vehicle, a humvee replacement. The stryker turned out to be a dod welfare program.

---

The problem with stryker as an APC, for those interested, is in the A. As in it has none.