Russia and Ukraine

[The Grand Nudger]

Let's not be hasty. Maybe it would be too much to ask of any one country to foot the bill for war that isn't their own. That would seem to include ukraine, as this war is russias, and russias to end whenever they choose. All we need is for russia to tell us exactly how many hectares of lebensraum they need and all involved nations can share the burden of that territorial cost. Yellowstone, a few warm water port cities in a handful of european countries...I bet he comes to the table. Does anyone have any excess grain we could send to him? I bet there are loads of home appliances we could negotiate over.

[pocaracas]

I have a better idea. Russia gets nothing and is forced to pay Ukraine damages for the war they started.

And how, pray tell, do you expect anyone to force Russia to do that?

[The Grand Nudger]

The lure of being fully included in the global economy is a powerful motivator.

[pocaracas]

The lure of being fully included in the global economy is a powerful motivator.

Maybe they're happy with being included in the Asian, African, and South American economies, while ignoring Europe and North America?

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, have at it. It was just an answer to your question of how any party might be made to entertain the notion of some sort of war reparation agreement. Asian, african, and south american economies are going to have their own sets of concerns and assurances they might want to see russia address...especially right now.

[Deesse23]

The lure of being fully included in the global economy is a powerful motivator.

Maybe they're happy with being included in the Asian, African, and South American economies, while ignoring Europe and North America?

EU and USA make up ca. 40% of Russias export and import. How do you think Russia is going to compensate for this?

[pocaracas]

Maybe they're happy with being included in the Asian, African, and South American economies, while ignoring Europe and North America?

EU and USA make up ca. 40% of Russias export and import. How do you think Russia is going to compensate for this?

Anyway they can.

They started already
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/7...hina-india

https://www.silkroadbriefing.com/news/20...stan-oman/

[The Grand Nudger]

The loss, ofc, is that they could have capitalized on both markets. They're certainly not getting better deals..with less leverage, to even thirstier partners, meanwhile.

[Deesse23]

EU and USA make up ca. 40% of Russias export and import. How do you think Russia is going to compensate for this?

Anyway they can.

They started already
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/7...hina-india

https://www.silkroadbriefing.com/news/20...stan-oman/

China is already, by far the biggest single trade partner of Russia (15%).
Russia wants to shift some of those 40% (EU/USA) to China!? Great. I hope Putin wont pick up the soap when Xi is near.

And what does he want to import from China (Pakistan or Iran)?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

What’s intriguing about this conflict is that Ukraine doesn’t have to win the battles to win the war - the longer it goes on, the worse it’s going to get for Russia.

... for everyone.

Regarding specious comments made about the peace proposals: why in the world would Ukraine agree to cede territory to end the war?

Precisely.... to end the war.

Russia didn’t stop at Crimea, what makes anyone think they’ll stop at the Donbas? Or eastern Ukraine? Or Poland? Or the Baltic states?

That would have to be agreed at the same time and any failure by Russia to abide by that deal, would result in some greater action by NATO. Hopefully, other large nations would also commit to keeping Russia in check.

 Putin has made it very clear that he feels Ukraine has no right to exist as a sovereign state.

That is probably propaganda to keep their morale up and instill fear in Ukrainian forces, don't you think?

It always makes more sense to give the bully a broken nose that to keep giving him your lunch money.

What if the bully then breaks your bones?



I think that, if we are to ever see this war to end, some concessions must be given on both sides.
Russia claims to want their Russian speaking peoples in Donbas and Crimea to not be under the yoke of a western leaning government, along with wanting a buffer nation between it and NATO. Belarus is one and Ukraine should be the other.
From my point of view, this war is the wrong way to accomplipshing either of these goals, but what do I know?

- Concerning the Russian speaking people, simply giving them a Russian passport, housing and jobs in present day (ahem, 2021) Russia would have been far far cheaper in both currency and human life.
- Concerning the buffer to NATO, Russia would just need to be a friendly nation towards Ukraine... and the Oligarch-based society should have appealed to the Ukrainian Oligarchy, but maybe the greater market of the EU appealed more to them... I don't know. Either way, the Russian way of doing things was clearly steering Ukraine away from them, hinting that they were doing things the wrong way. And so, like children, Putin&co. resort to violence.


To end the war, Russia would give Ukraine some peace; Ukraine would give Russia some land.
The western world could ease back on some sanctions, but I think they should mostly be kept - it's that bloody nose you talked about.
Yes, Europe will suffer a bit with the lack of gas for a while, but that will provide a good incentive to invest in renewables/nuclear and further independence from the very geographically localized fossil fuels and the dodgy regimes that control them around the world (yes, this includes the US).
China and India would rub their hands in glee as they get cheaper oil and gas from Russia that they can't sell to Europe... but that's going to happen even if the war goes on indefinitely.

1. What is Ukraine’s interest in ceding territory to end a war that Ukraine is winning (and will continue to win as long as Western aid holds out)?  It’s as if the Allies had approached Hitler in 1945 and said, ‘Ok, you can keep Austria and Poland if you’ll stop fighting.’

2. You mean like Hitler’s sincere promise that the Sudetenland was his last territorial claim in Europe? I mean, he signed that agreement and everything!

3. No, I don’t think it was propaganda, since it jibes with Putin’s stated position for the last ten years - the restoration of Greater Russia (and it it was propaganda for the reasons you suggest, it was an epic failure).

4. Then you have broken bones (which will heal) and no bully to contend with.

Agreements and treaties are all very well in situations where both parties accept them. They’re not terribly effective when one party has a history of ignoring them.

Boru