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Russia and Ukraine
RE: Russia and Ukraine
Ukraine is winning??!

Is that why Russian troops have settled in this position for over a month?
[Image: INTERACTIVE_UKRAINE_CONTROL-MAP-DAY195_S...=770%2C770]
Not to mention that they've been in Crimea since 2014 and don't seem to be in any hurry to leave.

Dude, there's propaganda on both sides.

This will only end either with a treaty of some kind between Russian and Ukraine, or with WW3 and game over for most of life on earth. I prefer the first option.
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
(September 6, 2022 at 2:27 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Ukraine is winning??!

Is that why Russian troops have settled in this position for over a month?
[Image: INTERACTIVE_UKRAINE_CONTROL-MAP-DAY195_S...=770%2C770]
Not to mention that they've been in Crimea since 2014 and don't seem to be in any hurry to leave.

Dude, there's propaganda on both sides.

This will only end either with a treaty of some kind between Russian and Ukraine, or with WW3 and game over for most of life on earth. I prefer the first option.

Given that Putin’s attempt to subjugate Ukraine was originally supposed to take three weeks and at day 195 ‘Russia has been settled in this position for over a month’, yes - Ukraine is winning.

Six months in and Russia controls barely 1/5 of Ukraine. This isn’t propaganda, it’s a brute fact. When you’re failing to achieve your objectives in a war, you’re losing. When you’re losing, the other side - by keeping you from achieving those objectives - is winning.

I also prefer to see this war end via a treaty, you and I disagree on what the terms of that treaty should be.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
And the sad thing is, given how the Minsk agreements were heavily weighted in Russia's favour and they still couldn't stick to the terms, I can't hold out much hope that a treaty will end up lasting very long.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
(September 6, 2022 at 3:31 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: And the sad thing is, given how the Minsk agreements were heavily weighted in Russia's favour and they still couldn't stick to the terms, I can't hold out much hope that a treaty will end up lasting very long.

I’d like to see Ukraine propose the following terms before they agree to stop nut-punching Russia: 

1. All Ukrainian territory seized since (and including) 2014 to be returned to Ukrainian control.

2. War reparations to be determined based on damage to Ukrainian infrastructure and economic activity.

3. Russia to pay for all munitions donated by Western countries to Ukraine.

4. All Ukrainian civilians kidnapped by Russia to be repatriated to Ukraine at Russian expense.

5. Russia to cede 100km along its entire border with Ukraine to create a DMZ manned by NATO personnel.

6. Arrest and detention of all Russian military officers involved in the war to be tried for war crimes.

7. Arrest and detention of all Russian civilian government officials involved in planning/executing the invasion to be tried for war crimes.

I think these are fair.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Given that Putin’s attempt to subjugate Ukraine was originally supposed to take three weeks

Is that what Western propaganda told you, or what the Kremlin said?

BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Six months in and Russia controls barely 1/5 of Ukraine. This isn’t propaganda, it’s a brute fact. When you’re failing to achieve your objectives in a war, you’re losing. When you’re losing, the other side - by keeping you from achieving those objectives - is winning.

How do you know Russia's objectives?

BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I also prefer to see this war end via a treaty, you and I disagree on what the terms of that treaty should be.

I think your terms are unrealistic, while mine are a bit more feasible and, yet, I still think Russia would not agree to them.
Remember that Putin needs to come out of this as the apparent winner ( in the propaganda filled nation of his). Either that or the whole Russian system gets replaced from within (or by NATO) which will not happen.
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
Yes Poca, Ukraine is winning. Hence all the wringing of hands from people who think that we need to abandon ukraine, so that russia might save face. It's one of those things were people can't seem to pick a lane. Putin doesn't need to come out of this with anything, and it's not as if putins desires keep ukranian soldiers up at night in their mad search to fulfill them. It's unclear to me why, without annexing ukraine, russia is going to fall.

Perhaps some elaboration is in order...and, as above, if the situation for russia is that precarious....who's winning?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
(September 6, 2022 at 4:40 pm)pocaracas Wrote:
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Given that Putin’s attempt to subjugate Ukraine was originally supposed to take three weeks

Is that what Western propaganda told you, or what the Kremlin said?
They said 3 days.  Nearly 200 days into putins 3 day war and he remains a master tactician.

Quote:
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Six months in and Russia controls barely 1/5 of Ukraine. This isn’t propaganda, it’s a brute fact. When you’re failing to achieve your objectives in a war, you’re losing. When you’re losing, the other side - by keeping you from achieving those objectives - is winning.

How do you know Russia's objectives?
Putin won't stop talking about them.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
(September 6, 2022 at 4:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I think these are fair.

Boru
-and since russia will likely get out of this without 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7, out of 7....it seems to me that's going to be a whole hell of alot of concessions to russia in the interest of peace....and ofc those sanctions will lift.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
(September 6, 2022 at 4:40 pm)pocaracas Wrote:
BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Given that Putin’s attempt to subjugate Ukraine was originally supposed to take three weeks

Is that what Western propaganda told you, or what the Kremlin said?

BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Six months in and Russia controls barely 1/5 of Ukraine. This isn’t propaganda, it’s a brute fact. When you’re failing to achieve your objectives in a war, you’re losing. When you’re losing, the other side - by keeping you from achieving those objectives - is winning.

How do you know Russia's objectives?
I can't find any sources for Boru's three weeks figure. The closest I could find were articles from three weeks into the invasion expressing surprise that Ukraine was still fighting with such little headway, and the director of the CIA claiming that Putin hoped Kyiv would fall in two days.

As for Russia's objectives, look no further than this article penned by Vladimir Putin himself and hosted on the Kremlin's own website. Putin has made abundantly clear that he doesn't even believe Ukraine should be an independent nation, and even compared the state's mere existence to a WMD attack on Russia.

And over a month after the invasion, this article appeared in Russian State Media. While I haven't found any reaction from Putin (though given that it was posted on official Russian State media, I doubt he's going to disavow it), it looks like his lapdog Medvedev is in firm agreement.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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RE: Russia and Ukraine
Thank you for your effort, Rev.

(September 6, 2022 at 5:12 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:
(September 6, 2022 at 4:40 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Is that what Western propaganda told you, or what the Kremlin said?


How do you know Russia's objectives?
I can't find any sources for Boru's three weeks figure. The closest I could find were articles from three weeks into the invasion expressing surprise that Ukraine was still fighting with such little headway, and the director of the CIA claiming that Putin hoped Kyiv would fall in two days.

Unfortunately, that's all US based media claiming to know what's going on in Russia's high command.
Don't know about you, but I'm skeptical of those claims. They do sound nice, but after all these months they seem less likely to be true.


(September 6, 2022 at 5:12 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: As for Russia's objectives, look no further than this article penned by Vladimir Putin himself and hosted on the Kremlin's own website. Putin has made abundantly clear that he doesn't even believe Ukraine should be an independent nation, and even compared the state's mere existence to a WMD attack on Russia.

That's a long ass text... Read
Ok, I skimmed over a few parts, but noticed that he put some emphasis on similar cultures in neighbouring countries coexisting peacefully, like US and Canada, or Germany and Austria. And then he concludes with:

"Russia is open to dialogue with Ukraine and ready to discuss the most complex issues. But it is important for us to understand that our partner is defending its national interests but not serving someone else's, and is not a tool in someone else's hands to fight against us.

We respect the Ukrainian language and traditions. We respect Ukrainians' desire to see their country free, safe and prosperous.

I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. "

Partnership is not subjugation and integration.
Sure, he wants a puppet in charge of Ukraine that will say "yes, master Putin", just like Lukashenko is in Belarus... but that's not what he's been getting since 2014 and now he's throwing a tantrum because his neighbour won't come out and play with him.

(September 6, 2022 at 5:12 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: And over a month after the invasion, this article appeared in Russian State Media. While I haven't found any reaction from Putin (though given that it was posted on official Russian State media, I doubt he's going to disavow it), it looks like his lapdog Medvedev is in firm agreement.

That article reads like a delusional plot for extermination... The hatred towards the Ukranians seems to match that which itself decries, the Nazi regime. The double standard must be difficult to maintain in that mind. Anyway, that looks like propaganda to rile up their own people against Ukrainians... contradicting what Putin himself put in his article that you showed above.

As I said before, there is propaganda from both sides and care must be taken when reading into all this.
If this conflict stays in Ukraine, it will have to be resolved by the people in charge of Russia and Ukraine, and those are Putin and Zelensky (for now), so they will each have to somehow make it look like they gained something out of the agreement, that's why I say that Boru's list is unrealistic.
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