Russia and Ukraine

[The Grand Nudger]

Thanks Obama!

Obama was sympathetic to russian claims. Pre february 2022 there was also the very real fear that russia could out escalate the us. Especially if we go all the way back to the obama years. Massive equipment transfers while we were still fighting two wars ourselves? Obama as a candidate backed ukraine (so did mccain). As president, though, that support was nonexistent until 2014. Obama, in mere reality, was the problem with getting ukraine in. Not that it would have mattered much before russia annexed crimea. Ukranians were against it. Occupation caused a 180 on that issue....and, ofc, for the us much the same post 2016. From refusing to offer lethal aid to opening up the candyshop everytime putin bombs another kindergarten. If we're going to blame us presidents for the war in ukraine then we need to give credit where it's due. That'd be trump, who was humiliated when he attempted and failed to blackmail ukraine and 100% in the tank for vlad the great.

To this very day, the russians long for a return of their agent Trumpushka. They see it as critical to their war effort, lol.

[ShinyCrystals]

Now, that is interesting. @BrianSoddingBoru4 and @The Grand Nudger

It is amazing how people don’t check their facts and would rather listen to those like politicians, thinking they know it all. It does not help that this guy I mentioned is a Trumper, too.

[The Grand Nudger]

Some people live on Earth B. Russians think the ukranian smash and grab is essential to their country's survival - because that's what amounts to an investment and development plan in a kleptocracy. Think about how hard they had to wheel around from genuinely believing that they'd be greeted with flowers to thinking that no russian can be safe anywhere until every ukranian is dead.

Living on Earth B makes demands of our cognitive faculties that, even in the best of times, we're not up to. Case in point, occupying forces often spend their off time hiding from ukranian drones in holes in the mud sharing their real estate plans for when the war is over. They're going to buy apartments on the beach and shit, and rent them out. They say this, they think this, even as russian landlords properties are being set on fire - as collaborators are being executed in car bombings. Hell, even the regular old civilians are still doing summer vacations on crimean beaches like there isn't a war on. Accidentally geolocating russian air defense assets - seemingly gobsmacked every time a missile flies overhead even though the arrivals come with some regularity.

[Leonardo17]

I think the causes of this war should be crystal-clear by now. Here is a very nice report on how this thing has started:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-marks...40503.html
 

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I knew before the war that ex-Soviet state citizens has this sense of national pride and nationalist values that are well, not so alive in countries with decades old democracies. So this Maidan Revolution + the war of independence that followed serves as a reminding lessons for us all (not everything in this world is about our individual dramas and/or consumption of electronic devices that are obsolete the moment we unpack them ).
 
So I have to thank the Ukranians for that.
 
2) Putin is not an “ultra Nationalist”, he is not an Ultra-anything. He is not even a true heir to the Soviet heritage either. As I pointed out in some other threads, Socialism (or Russian-style Communism) has nothing to do with what he is doing either.
 

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So in our evolution as a specie, this might be just another instance of brute-force vs. real values.
 
Still I am happy I am sitting here in my peaceful house instead of being out there in the mud waiting for the next Zombie Attack.
 
And here is another red-head I really want to salute. Truly, I admire courage and this sense of responsibility when I see it:  
 
https://www.businessinsider.com/im-an-am...ne-2023-11

[FrustratedFool]

What would you like to see as the result of this conflict?

[The Grand Nudger]

A full withdrawal of all troops in the occupied areas. The recognition of ukraines 91 borders. The return of all ukrainian pows, political prisoners, and children.

I mean, I'd love to add reparations and the like, but russia couldn't afford them anyway...and there's no gaurantee there would be a russia to pay them after the conflict ends.

[pocaracas]

A full withdrawal of all troops in the occupied areas.  The recognition of ukraines 91 borders.   The return of all ukrainian pows, political prisoners, and children.

I mean, I'd love to add reparations and the like, but russia couldn't afford them anyway...and there's no gaurantee there would be a russia to pay them after the conflict ends.

I guess the land would still be there. The people would still be living there.
The government may desintegrate in some revolution, but those tend to bring new governments with them, so... Russia will still be there, hopefully a more humble one and more willing to play along with everyone else on the planet.

[The Grand Nudger]

Not a chance in hell. Russia is an unrestructured empire. While the rest of us were learning..with frightful starts and stops..that colonialism was bad and wars of territorial expansion were bad, russia was learning that this was the preferred end state, instead. Now, nuts will pop in with some version of "they learned at the feet of the masters" - which may be true..but if so, what does it mean for russia to have taken only the worst lesson of the great western satan?

Weren't we already bad enough, lol? Cmon russia, stick to the status quo of fucking. Low and slow, enough to keep the peasants working instead of rioting..or worse, picking up guns and shooting back. That's the real fuck-up. The damage that russia has done to ukraine is astounding, dwarfed only by the damage it's done to itself. In 20 years time they'll be grumbling about how they didn't lose in ukraine, they got backstabbed by the generals and the politicians. They're saying it now, ffs.

[Leonardo17]

Jens Stoltenberg is still saying that the war is likely to be long and costly. This mean additional burdens for all Western economies. This might give plenty of time to new actors in the world like China and India to develop their economies and armies and become a huge problem for everyone in the future.
 
I would also like to update the numbers as they keep coming in.
 
Since February 2022, 70,000 Ukrainians have lost their lives and 120,000 are wounded. The number of civilian casualties is around 10,000.
 
The Russian Numbers are less accurate (they don’t even seem to know it themselves). But the estimations are between 290,000 and 3500,000 casualties.
 
The regular army = 250,000 wounded + 50,000 killed.
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-likely...07257.html
 
 
Wagner Group = 40,000 wounded + 40,000 killed.

[The Grand Nudger]

The burdens won't start until the war ends and reconstruction begins. Right now, something like 90% of ukranian assistance in the us goes to us states. That will change when it comes time to build homes in ukraine as opposed to defense production lines in the us.

From a cynical beancounting pov, ukraine is all upside for the us, which makes the agents, traitors, and arsonists line in our government especially hollow and self serving.