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A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Assuming is not knowing.  You can assume that is what God did but you don't know that's what he did as he may have had other ideas. 

You can play this game all day long about God having some hidden agendas, instead of looking at what God purportedly did and said. There is a principle called credulity, we assume things that appear to be so as indeed so, otherwise, we simply depart from reality.

(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote: In fact, we know he left certain backdoors in our reasoning by which it could be corrupted so as to allow the hardening of hearts.  

the 'heardening of hearts' verses you're alluding to only concern people who knowingly reject the islamic message, not people who made honest mistakes in reasoning, but I think you already know that.

(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote:  And Satan rules on earth, 

Show us the verse in the Qur'an that asserts that, I'll wait.

In fact the Qur'an asserts the exact contrary:

"Indeed, Satan’s schemes are ever weak." (4:76)

“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”
Chapter 18  Thor Oakshield -Hobbit-


Checkmate again.

Scoreboard

Klorphyll: 0

Nay_Sayer: 34,583,014
"For the only way to eternal glory is a life lived in service of our Lord, FSM; Verily it is FSM who is the perfect being the name higher than all names, king of all kings and will bestow upon us all, one day, The great reclaiming"  -The Prophet Boiardi-

      Conservative trigger warning.
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Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 3:07 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote:
(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: You can play this game all day long about God having some hidden agendas, instead of looking at what God purportedly did and said. There is a principle called credulity, we assume things that appear to be so as indeed so, otherwise, we simply depart from reality.


the 'heardening of hearts' verses you're alluding to only concern people who knowingly reject the islamic message, not people who made honest mistakes in reasoning, but I think you already know that.


Show us the verse in the Qur'an that asserts that, I'll wait.

In fact the Qur'an asserts the exact contrary:

"Indeed, Satan’s schemes are ever weak." (4:76)

“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”
Chapter 18  Thor Oakshield -Hobbit-


Checkmate again.

Scoreboard

Klorphyll: 0

Nay_Sayer: 34,583,014
A quote from a vastly superior book
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Assuming is not knowing.  You can assume that is what God did but you don't know that's what he did as he may have had other ideas. 

You can play this game all day long about God having some hidden agendas, instead of looking at what God purportedly did and said. There is a principle called credulity, we assume things that appear to be so as indeed so, otherwise, we simply depart from reality.

God didn't say anything that is in the Koran. As to what God did, well you're still trying to futilely prove authorship along several dimensions. Regardless, assuming isn't knowing, and revelation is every bit as useless without first establishing the god so described exists -- not some similar god but that specific one. Can you do that? No.


(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote: In fact, we know he left certain backdoors in our reasoning by which it could be corrupted so as to allow the hardening of hearts.  

the 'heardening of hearts' verses you're alluding to only concern people who knowingly reject the islamic message, not people who made honest mistakes in reasoning, but I think you already know that.

Not the point, oh clueless one. God clearly provided the possibility that your reason may be corrupted, now you need to prove your reasoning isn't corrupted. How are you going to do that except through reasoning, which may be corrupted?


(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote:  And Satan rules on earth, 

Show us the verse in the Qur'an that asserts that, I'll wait.

In fact the Qur'an asserts the exact contrary:

"Indeed, Satan’s schemes are ever weak." (4:76)

That's nice, we have one revelation from God that says that Satan rules on earth. You have a revelation from God that says otherwise. Now all you have to do is prove which one is correct. I'll wait.


Oh, and still waiting for evidence of fine tuning.
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Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Assuming is not knowing.  You can assume that is what God did but you don't know that's what he did as he may have had other ideas. 

You can play this game all day long about God having some hidden agendas, instead of looking at what God purportedly did and said. There is a principle called credulity, we assume things that appear to be so as indeed so, otherwise, we simply depart from reality.

(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote: In fact, we know he left certain backdoors in our reasoning by which it could be corrupted so as to allow the hardening of hearts.  

the 'heardening of hearts' verses you're alluding to only concern people who knowingly reject the islamic message, not people who made honest mistakes in reasoning, but I think you already know that.

I can't speak for everyone..but I knowingly reject the islamic message precisely because I'm convinced that the islamic message is exactly what you and your islamist buddies keep telling me it is. 

That, Kloro, is exactly what I think is dogshit, exactly why I don't feel like joining your club.  It's not just that you're full of shit, but also that it would be dogshit even it were true. Assuming god did and said every little thing you believe - I'll pass.

Comprende?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 3:58 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: You can play this game all day long about God having some hidden agendas, instead of looking at what God purportedly did and said. There is a principle called credulity, we assume things that appear to be so as indeed so, otherwise, we simply depart from reality.

God didn't say anything that is in the Koran.  As to what God did, well you're still trying to futilely prove authorship along several dimensions.  Regardless, assuming isn't knowing, and revelation is every bit as useless without first establishing the god so described exists -- not some similar god but that specific one.  Can you do that?  No.


(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: the 'heardening of hearts' verses you're alluding to only concern people who knowingly reject the islamic message, not people who made honest mistakes in reasoning, but I think you already know that.

Not the point, oh clueless one.  God clearly provided the possibility that your reason may be corrupted, now you need to prove your reasoning isn't corrupted.  How are you going to do that except through reasoning, which may be corrupted?


(March 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Show us the verse in the Qur'an that asserts that, I'll wait.

In fact the Qur'an asserts the exact contrary:

"Indeed, Satan’s schemes are ever weak." (4:76)

That's nice, we have one revelation from God that says that Satan rules on earth.  You have a revelation from God that says otherwise.  Now all you have to do is prove which one is correct.  I'll wait.


Oh, and still waiting for evidence of fine tuning.
He might assert revelation as many presups do. But it still requires a possibly corrupted mind to receive the message and interpret it.
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
@Klorophyll How is me pointing out the fact that you’re using the same logic you’re condemning atheists for using an ad hominem attack? I’ll wait.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
He doesn't know what the term means. Oh well, it's not like it would be helpful if he did - he's a cultist. It's been a pet project of mine for some time to explain to our evangelists that proving the shit they believe in is really real™ is insufficient. There's a bowling club here in town. They're real. I don't need and they don't need to argue themselves into existence. I'm still not a member, just because that club is real in all of the ways that his silly god is not. Bowling just isn't my jam.

IDK, but I don't think the consequential difference between a muslim and a western atheist is that one doesn't believe in a god and one does. Or even that one person doesn't really know how to do logic and another does. It's a fundamental difference not related to god belief whatsoever.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 2:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Because, assuming theism, God intended to create human beings who would actively and freely seek to know Him. This entails endowing them with brains capable of investigating reality and acquire knowledge.

You are assuming that your brain has been designed to function properly and also, the jewish god is assuming that his brain is functioning properly.
You aren’t actually giving us any reasons why this god thinks that his brain is functioning properly.
Is it because there is a sticker on his jacket where it says “Hello, I am a god”?


Quote:By contrast, there is a set of arguments asserting a difficulty in reconciling naturalism with evolution, and it doesn't take a genius to see why: one can't even pretend to investigate ultimate reality when, at the same time, they are unable to accurately justify the reliability of their senses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutiona...naturalism

These are arguments from philosophers and philosophers love arguing with lines such as
“then the probability of having reliable cognitive faculties is low”

however, no mathematical foundation is present in their actual arguments and no experiment has been conducted to demonstrated that what they are saying is true.
In the end, we get nowhere.

I already gave my argument as to why our brains function properly.


Quote:Going back to the foundation won't help you here: the fundamental particles were clearly fine-tuned all along to yield our universe, if that doesn't point one to a designer then it's difficult to see if anything would be enough for them. besides that, nature is not capable of anything, because it's not a personal agent.


You need to show that tuning is even possible. If tuning is possible, then someone tuned the universe in which the jewish god exists so that the jewish god would be functional.
All these arguments that theists use can be used on their god and the house he lives in.

Yes, nature does have capabilities. We call them properties. As I said
It is also easy to explain why nature is not capable of making watches and it has nothing to do with complexity.


Quote:Whenever you utter the word God or omnibenevolence, you should take the afterlife into account before tring to make any assessment. You say : why does God watch and do nothing? Clearly this is ridiculous, God created eternal damnation in hell for the worst criminals, this is not nothing, this is just you making judgements based on the extremely short (relatively to an infinite afterlife) lifespan of the criminal or the victim.


Yes, I am making a judgement. The jewish god just watched rape, torture, famines and horrors happen. If someone can easily do something and save and help someone, yet does nothing, then he is a monster.
Torturing criminals in the afterlife doesn’t erase what this jewish god has done/not done.
In fact, torturing criminals itself is a disgusting act. So, he is just making himself look worst and worst.
Of course, there is no jewish god at all. These are just stories coming from a few cultures from the middle east areas.

Can we really blame primitive humans from believing such things? They grew up in a disorderly world with no jail and no modern criminal court system. Every time there was a problem, it just seems that the answer was to respond with stoning. Life was quite hard back then.

Quote:I am not sure about your stance on morality. Under divine command theory, anything God does is moral, and anythng God forbids isn't. I think most religious people will accept divine command theory.

God allows a finite period of injustice and then redresses it by an infinitely long outcome. If he were to negate injustice altogether at all times, this would jeopardize the free will of moral agents.

That’s not a theory. That is licking the dictator’s butt.
Obviously, the people attached to the jewish flavor of religions will bend down to anything that the jewish god does.
Anything the jewish god does is moral? Is this because he has a sticker on his jacket that says “Hello, I am the god”?

Quote:If he were to negate injustice altogether at all times, this would jeopardize the free will of moral agents.
Allowing rape to occur is part of allowing moral agents to exercize their free will.

I see. So you are saying that it is very important that someone rapes someone else.
Why is that important for you?



Quote:As human beings with limited cognition, nobody really understands justice or what it entails. We might be able to build justice systems based on some widely accepted moral axioms, but that's it.

But you are here claiming you can understand justice and the morality of torturing criminals and rapists better than all knowing deity, this is ridiculous, and I think you know it.

I disagree. I understand justice and of course, there are various forms of justice.
Yes, I do understand justice better than some primitive humans from thousands of years ago.
You do know that I think the justice present in the Bible comes from primitive humans, right?

Quote:True, and neither do you. That's why we defer judgment to an all-knowing deity.

I think I know what eternity means. It means that over time, you are going to get bored out of your mind. There is a limited number of things that a human can do.
This is why I ask people who are part of the jewish flavor of religions, what are you going to do in the first 100 y in heaven?
What about the next 1000 y?
What about 10^100000?
What about 10^100000^1000000?

There are descriptions of hell in the Bible. It just has element 16 and it is a torture chamber.
But when it comes to heaven, they try to skip giving details.
This makes sense since whatever description you give, one can ask “Well, is that all?”


Quote:But, being the ungrateful moron that you are, you turn your back on him and complain about why people are getting raped.

Control your emotions.
Try to act like a gentlemen.

I am including the above lines to show that you are a jewish ass licker. You are so grateful that you consider torturing people as a great thing.
You are also offended that I am not grateful like you.
Are you willing to do anything for your god?
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 16, 2022 at 10:35 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote:
(March 15, 2022 at 2:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Because, assuming theism, God intended to create human beings who would actively and freely seek to know Him. This entails endowing them with brains capable of investigating reality and acquire knowledge.

You are assuming that your brain has been designed to function properly and also, the jewish god is assuming that his brain is functioning properly.
You aren’t actually giving us any reasons why this god thinks that his brain is functioning properly.
Is it because there is a sticker on his jacket where it says “Hello, I am a god”?


Quote:By contrast, there is a set of arguments asserting a difficulty in reconciling naturalism with evolution, and it doesn't take a genius to see why: one can't even pretend to investigate ultimate reality when, at the same time, they are unable to accurately justify the reliability of their senses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutiona...naturalism

These are arguments from philosophers and philosophers love arguing with lines such as
“then the probability of having reliable cognitive faculties is low”

however, no mathematical foundation is present in their actual arguments and no experiment has been conducted to demonstrated that what they are saying is true.
In the end, we get nowhere.

I already gave my argument as to why our brains function properly.


Quote:Going back to the foundation won't help you here: the fundamental particles were clearly fine-tuned all along to yield our universe, if that doesn't point one to a designer then it's difficult to see if anything would be enough for them. besides that, nature is not capable of anything, because it's not a personal agent.


You need to show that tuning is even possible. If tuning is possible, then someone tuned the universe in which the jewish god exists so that the jewish god would be functional.
All these arguments that theists use can be used on their god and the house he lives in.

Yes, nature does have capabilities. We call them properties. As I said
It is also easy to explain why nature is not capable of making watches and it has nothing to do with complexity.


Quote:Whenever you utter the word God or omnibenevolence, you should take the afterlife into account before tring to make any assessment. You say : why does God watch and do nothing? Clearly this is ridiculous, God created eternal damnation in hell for the worst criminals, this is not nothing, this is just you making judgements based on the extremely short (relatively to an infinite afterlife) lifespan of the criminal or the victim.


Yes, I am making a judgement. The jewish god just watched rape, torture, famines and horrors happen. If someone can easily do something and save and help someone, yet does nothing, then he is a monster.
Torturing criminals in the afterlife doesn’t erase what this jewish god has done/not done.
In fact, torturing criminals itself is a disgusting act. So, he is just making himself look worst and worst.
Of course, there is no jewish god at all. These are just stories coming from a few cultures from the middle east areas.

Can we really blame primitive humans from believing such things? They grew up in a disorderly world with no jail and no modern criminal court system. Every time there was a problem, it just seems that the answer was to respond with stoning. Life was quite hard back then.

Quote:I am not sure about your stance on morality. Under divine command theory, anything God does is moral, and anythng God forbids isn't. I think most religious people will accept divine command theory.

God allows a finite period of injustice and then redresses it by an infinitely long outcome. If he were to negate injustice altogether at all times, this would jeopardize the free will of moral agents.

That’s not a theory. That is licking the dictator’s butt.
Obviously, the people attached to the jewish flavor of religions will bend down to anything that the jewish god does.
Anything the jewish god does is moral? Is this because he has a sticker on his jacket that says “Hello, I am the god”?

Quote:If he were to negate injustice altogether at all times, this would jeopardize the free will of moral agents.
Allowing rape to occur is part of allowing moral agents to exercize their free will.

I see. So you are saying that it is very important that someone rapes someone else.
Why is that important for you?



Quote:As human beings with limited cognition, nobody really understands justice or what it entails. We might be able to build justice systems based on some widely accepted moral axioms, but that's it.

But you are here claiming you can understand justice and the morality of torturing criminals and rapists better than all knowing deity, this is ridiculous, and I think you know it.

I disagree. I understand justice and of course, there are various forms of justice.
Yes, I do understand justice better than some primitive humans from thousands of years ago.
You do know that I think the justice present in the Bible comes from primitive humans, right?

Quote:True, and neither do you. That's why we defer judgment to an all-knowing deity.

I think I know what eternity means. It means that over time, you are going to get bored out of your mind. There is a limited number of things that a human can do.
This is why I ask people who are part of the jewish flavor of religions, what are you going to do in the first 100 y in heaven?
What about the next 1000 y?
What about 10^100000?
What about 10^100000^1000000?

There are descriptions of hell in the Bible. It just has element 16 and it is a torture chamber.
But when it comes to heaven, they try to skip giving details.
This makes sense since whatever description you give, one can ask “Well, is that all?”


Quote:But, being the ungrateful moron that you are, you turn your back on him and complain about why people are getting raped.

Control your emotions.
Try to act like a gentlemen.

I am including the above lines to show that you are a jewish ass licker. You are so grateful that you consider torturing people as a great thing.
You are also offended that I am not grateful like you.
Are you willing to do anything for your god?
Klor loves his wordy rubbish  Hehe
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 2:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Because, assuming theism,....

That's the problem with theism. Too much assuming based on fallible faith.
“The man who can't visualize a horse galloping on a tomato is an idiot.”
~ André Breton
Reply



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