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A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 12, 2022 at 8:40 am)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 12, 2022 at 2:30 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Hey don't worry about the rape kid - got a lollipop for you and a torture party for him.  Punch and pie in the sky!  This, right here, is why no one can turn their back on a person like you.  Disgusting.

You're belittling the afterlife only because you don't believe in it. If you think about it seriously, you would know it's enough to redress all kinds of injustice.
I'd think that your idea of the afterlife was shit even if I did believe in an afterlife. We don't run our justice system or our prisons that way in real life, why would we want them run that way in the ghost world?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 12, 2022 at 3:06 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(March 12, 2022 at 8:40 am)Klorophyll Wrote: You're belittling the afterlife only because you don't believe in it. If you think about it seriously, you would know it's enough to redress all kinds of injustice.
I'd think that your idea of the afterlife was shit even if I did believe in an afterlife. We don't run our justice system or our prisons that way in real life, why would we want them run that way in the ghost world?

Some early Christians (Origen) were universalists; not every Christian thinker was a dick, just most of them.
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 12, 2022 at 3:06 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(March 12, 2022 at 8:40 am)Klorophyll Wrote: You're belittling the afterlife only because you don't believe in it. If you think about it seriously, you would know it's enough to redress all kinds of injustice.
I'd think that your idea of the afterlife was shit even if I did believe in an afterlife. We don't run our justice system or our prisons that way in real life, why would we want them run that way in the ghost world?

What, Grand, you don't see the morality of torture? How?

Another thing that Muslim guys don't get is how the Islamic afterlife is awkward for women.

[Image: Afterlife.jpg]
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
@Klorophyll

Quote:God already expressed his omnibenevolence when he created you and endowed you with life, health, income, shelter, and so on, and so on, and so on.

But since the world demonstrably includes the dead, the sick, the poor, the homeless and so on and so on, God's benevolence is hardly 'omni', is it?

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 11, 2022 at 6:12 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(February 27, 2022 at 8:35 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Obviously, the intelligent design of nature is a delusion

An atheist shouldn't really talk much about delusions, you know.

Tell me, @Fake Messiah, absent a god, how do you trust your naturally evolved brain to be a reliable tool to investigate reality, and not a delusion? 

I disagree.
Also, you don’t know whether this god-alien’s universe has existed forever.
Right now, you have a story written by primitive men from thousands of years ago.

Quote:Tell me, @Fake Messiah, absent a god, how do you trust your naturally evolved brain to be a reliable tool to investigate reality, and not a delusion?


I ask the same question to theists:
With the presents of god, how do you trust your naturally evolved brain to be a reliable tool to investigate reality, and not a delusion?

Also, I will answer your question.
All animal brains are tuned up by nature to operate a certain way. Most animals have the following data processing abilities:
-graphics
-audio
-touch (pressure)
-pain (pressure)
-temperature
-taste (chemical)
-smell (chemical)

All animal brains seem to have the ability to collect data and they store. For example, they are able to memorize their environment, their colleagues.

So, in order to survive, you need a properly functioning brain.
The ability to do mathematics (linear algebra, calculus, compose music, painting, writing movie script, setting up experiments, producing new chemicals) is a side product of those abilities. It looks like humans are the only ones who have past the basics of nature and it looks like some chimpanzees as well.
For example, there is the case where a human though a chimpanzee american sign language and that chimp though another chimp.

Quote:Yes. And when they do mention God, they freak out, they blasphemed the Darwinian Religion:

Yes, when it comes to lifeforms, the theists are trying to insert their gods into it. Not surprising since theist regard themselves as the ultimate product made by their god.
Serious scientists don’t resort to aliens to explain reality.


Quote:None of this explains away a designer, you're just describing a mechanism.
Understanding the mechanisms of a watch doesn't explain away the watchmaker.

Everything is a mechanism based on what we have observed so far.
At the foundation, the mechanism are based on the properties of a few fundamental particles.
It is also easy to explain why nature is not capable of making watches and it has nothing to do with complexity.

Quote:Yes, I see people on TV getting raped and killed round the clock. and... so do you?

It sounds like you didn’t understand the question or you choose to pretend not to understand it.
If this god is omnibenevolent, why does he just sit around and watch? He doesn’t have any feelings? Is he comfortable sitting on his throne?

Quote:God already expressed his omnibenevolence when he created you and endowed you with life, health, income, shelter, and so on, and so on, and so on.. But, being the ungrateful moron that you are, you turn your back on him and complain about why people are getting raped. An eternal afterlife is enough (duh) to redress the dramatic injustice in this life, imagine a rapist getting 30 years of inhuman torture for his crime, I bet you will start to pity him despite his wrongdoing (after he got 30 years of relentless suffering) and think this is justice enough.. now imagine him getting 300 years like that, or 3000, ... Seriously, eternity is enough. And anyone arguing otherwise doesn't really understand what eternity means.


That’s not omnibenevolence.
When a father and mother have a child and take care of the child for years, they are being kind to the child.
The jewish god is the type of god who doesn’t get involved.

Health comes from genetics, the environments. There is no evidence of any jewish god doing anything.

Income and shelter is something that depends on the culture, the country. Some are less advanced. Some have hostile neighbors and are in prolonged wars.

Quote:But, being the ungrateful moron that you are, you turn your back on him and complain about why people are getting raped.

Control your emotions.
Try to act like a gentlemen.

Rape, torture, crimes aren’t things that I could ignore. I understand that you are comfortable with such things like your jewish god. I am not.

I disagree. Allowing injustice means that the jewish god doesn’t care about morals.
A rapist getting 30 y of torture doesn’t undo the rape event. It doesn’t solve the problem of allowing rape to occur.
I am not interested in torturing rapists.
I would leave that job in your hands. In fact, I would throw you in jail for torturing people.

I have noticed that for theists, justice often means to torture the criminal. Why do you want to do that? Does it bring your satisfaction?


Quote:And anyone arguing otherwise doesn't really understand what eternity means.

I don’t think you understand what eternity means.
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 11, 2022 at 6:12 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(February 27, 2022 at 8:35 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Obviously, the intelligent design of nature is a delusion

An atheist shouldn't really talk much about delusions, you know.

Tell me, @Fake Messiah, absent a god, how do you trust your naturally evolved brain to be a reliable tool to investigate reality, and not a delusion?

And yet here you are on AF, a theist, bragging that your big smart brain has figured out that a god indisputably exists, lol.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 13, 2022 at 10:54 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:
(March 11, 2022 at 6:12 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: An atheist shouldn't really talk much about delusions, you know.

Tell me, @Fake Messiah, absent a god, how do you trust your naturally evolved brain to be a reliable tool to investigate reality, and not a delusion?

And yet here you are on AF, a theist, bragging that your big smart brain has figured out that a god indisputably exists, lol.

God needs and deserves better apologists. In algorithms, this is known as the "hiring problem".
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I ask the same question to theists:
With the presents of god, how do you trust your naturally evolved brain to be a reliable tool to investigate reality, and not a delusion?

Because, assuming theism, God intended to create human beings who would actively and freely seek to know Him. This entails endowing them with brains capable of investigating reality and acquire knowledge.

By contrast, there is a set of arguments asserting a difficulty in reconciling naturalism with evolution, and it doesn't take a genius to see why: one can't even pretend to investigate ultimate reality when, at the same time, they are unable to accurately justify the reliability of their senses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutiona...naturalism#:~:

(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Everything is a mechanism based on what we have observed so far.
At the foundation, the mechanism are based on the properties of a few fundamental particles.
It is also easy to explain why nature is not capable of making watches and it has nothing to do with complexity.

Going back to the foundation won't help you here: the fundamental particles were clearly fine-tuned all along to yield our universe, if that doesn't point one to a designer then it's difficult to see if anything would be enough for them. besides that, nature is not capable of anything, because it's not a personal agent. 

(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: It sounds like you didn’t understand the question or you choose to pretend not to understand it.
If this god is omnibenevolent, why does he just sit around and watch? He doesn’t have any feelings? Is he comfortable sitting on his throne?

Whenever you utter the word God or omnibenevolence, you should take the afterlife into account before tring to make any assessment. You say : why does God watch and do nothing? Clearly this is ridiculous, God created eternal damnation in hell for the worst criminals, this is not nothing, this is just you making judgements based on the extremely short (relatively to an infinite afterlife) lifespan of the criminal or the victim.

(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I disagree. Allowing injustice means that the jewish god doesn’t care about morals.

I am not sure about your stance on morality. Under divine command theory, anything God does is moral, and anythng God forbids isn't. I think most religious people will accept divine command theory. 

God allows a finite period of injustice and then redresses it by an infinitely long outcome. If he were to negate injustice altogether at all times, this would jeopardize the free will of moral agents.

(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: A rapist getting 30 y of torture doesn’t undo the rape event. It doesn’t solve the problem of allowing rape to occur.

Allowing rape to occur is part of allowing moral agents to exercize their free will. 

(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I have noticed that for theists, justice often means to torture the criminal. Why do you want to do that? Does it bring your satisfaction?

As human beings with limited cognition, nobody really understands justice or what it entails. We might be able to build justice systems based on some widely accepted moral axioms, but that's it. 

But you are here claiming you can understand justice and the morality of torturing criminals and rapists better than all knowing deity, this is ridiculous, and I think you know it.

(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote:
Quote:And anyone arguing otherwise doesn't really understand what eternity means.

I don’t think you understand what eternity means.

True, and neither do you. That's why we defer judgment to an all-knowing deity.

(March 13, 2022 at 10:54 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: And yet here you are on AF, a theist, bragging that your big smart brain has figured out that a god indisputably exists, lol.

And yet here you are on AF, an atheist, throwing ad hominems left and right to dodge arguments.
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 2:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I ask the same question to theists:
With the presents of god, how do you trust your naturally evolved brain to be a reliable tool to investigate reality, and not a delusion?

Because, assuming theism, God intended to create human beings who would actively and freely seek to know Him. This entails endowing them with brains capable of investigating reality and acquire knowledge.

Assuming is not knowing. You can assume that is what God did but you don't know that's what he did as he may have had other ideas. In fact, we know he left certain backdoors in our reasoning by which it could be corrupted so as to allow the hardening of hearts. And Satan rules on earth, explicitly, assuming God wouldn't allow you to be deceived gets you jack squat.


(March 15, 2022 at 2:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 13, 2022 at 9:41 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Everything is a mechanism based on what we have observed so far.
At the foundation, the mechanism are based on the properties of a few fundamental particles.
It is also easy to explain why nature is not capable of making watches and it has nothing to do with complexity.

Going back to the foundation won't help you here: the fundamental particles were clearly fine-tuned all along to yield our universe, if that doesn't point one to a designer then it's difficult to see if anything would be enough for them. besides that, nature is not capable of anything, because it's not a personal agent. 

You have no evidence that they were fine-tuned. Random chance explains them as parsimoniously as design.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Assuming is not knowing.  You can assume that is what God did but you don't know that's what he did as he may have had other ideas. 

You can play this game all day long about God having some hidden agendas, instead of looking at what God purportedly did and said. There is a principle called credulity, we assume things that appear to be so as indeed so, otherwise, we simply depart from reality.

(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote: In fact, we know he left certain backdoors in our reasoning by which it could be corrupted so as to allow the hardening of hearts.  

the 'heardening of hearts' verses you're alluding to only concern people who knowingly reject the islamic message, not people who made honest mistakes in reasoning, but I think you already know that.

(March 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm)Angrboda Wrote:  And Satan rules on earth, 

Show us the verse in the Qur'an that asserts that, I'll wait.

In fact the Qur'an asserts the exact contrary:

"Indeed, Satan’s schemes are ever weak." (4:76)
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