Why NATO doesn't give to Ukraine plan of membership?

[The Grand Nudger]

I predict that regardless of whether russia wins or loses (and, honestly, it's looking like loses right now..unless they come up with something different)...some people will blame biden. Nothing to do with it, but whatever. In fact, the people most likely to blame biden are also the people least likely to realize or acknowledge that attempting to extort zelinsky for political dirt in exchange for military aide signed some number of ukrainian death warrants.

We don't all know that, btw, I think you probably reject that explicitly. That the ends actually do justify the means or that actual history is actually written by the actual victors.

[Jehanne]

Who else will write it? The North American indigenous peoples can rightly claim that the United States annexed their lands all in the name of the Triune God, Manifest Destiny, but, that land is now Ours, and, we're keeping it.

If Russia annexes Ukraine, in whole or in part, they will keep it, until they are forced to give it back. None of this is worth a World War and a nuclear exchange, even a limited one. If the Ukrainians wish to wage a protracted war against a nuclear power, well, that's their business, I suppose. As for me, I pity the dozens to hundreds of little children who have (or, about to) perish at the Azovstal steel plant.

[abaris]

None of that is particularly relevant to eastern ukraine..where people just (apparently, according to them) want to stop the russians from killing them, even (and maybe especially) if that means joining the russians.  That is the deal the russians are offering, at any rate.  Bend the knee or die.

I'm not sure, if stopping the Russians killing them is the main impulse. The provinces we're talking about, including the Crimean, have a very strong ehtnic Russian element. Of course, the referendum on the Crimean was a farce, but I'm not sure, how a real referendum had turned out. It may have still been in favor of Russia. It was Chrustchev, himself the son of Ukrainian farmers, who donated the Crimean to the Ukrainian republic in 1954. Till 1991/92, this was irrelevant, but now it counts. There is still a majority Russian population living there.

The problem is, we don't get no independent coverage from these regions. And by independent, I mean organisations, who have no horse in the race. Such as the UN or other non profit organisations.

The whole war between Russia and Ukraine is covered deeply in a fog of war. We get reports from the Russians, we get reports from the Ukrainians and neither are reliable. We get next to nothing from independents.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's a fun way to put it...but russia..is the kievan rus. Domestic exotics were forbidden to me so I satisfied my fetishes in a culturally acceptable way. Russians......culturally, have a strong historically ukranian element. Some might think it's an information sewer, where we cant trust anything. I think there are facts and we can trust those facts, despite any interested party's war on facts - exemplified by russian messaging in this instance.

My (married in) family..is the keivan rus....to the extent that we're "other than american". That's the second thing. I'm fucking pro-russian and always have been, and listen to me, lol. Then again, maybe thats an issue. Too many cousins and friends in odessa and other eastern european ports. Clouding my judgement. Making me think that watering the eastern european fields with invaders blood is a good thing. Or maybe I'm compromised by the fact that I'm a trained combatant, and I'll always feel a dehumanizing derision towards troops that have behaved in the way that russias forces have - regardless of where they (or we) come from.

But regardless of which (if any) of these scenarios is correct, it will always remain a fact that ukraine was invaded, and not by ukranians. The conflict in eastern ukraine was created by and is perpetuated by..russia...even if there are ukranians that would sign with russia if that stopped the killing. Which it won't........

But to hell with all of that. Give me an example of any possible reporter of information that would have no dog in the conflict in ukraine. None. Such that, we couldn't doubt their report just because they had a dog in some hunt?

[Jehanne]

Without exception, war crimes have happened in every war, the American Revolution being no exception. Some Russian soldiers have behaved badly; ditto for the Ukrainians.

[The Grand Nudger]

Have they? Which war crimes would you assume ukranians have committed? Which warcrimes are they even in a position to do?

[Jehanne]

Have they? Which war crimes would you assume ukranians have committed? Which warcrimes are they even in a position to do?

Shooting captured Russian soldiers in the knee with some summarily executed.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, they used to be russian soldiers, till they took a (ukranian) bullet to the knee? Which ones? Wait a minute. Why wouldn't ukranian soldiers shoot russian invaders directly in the knees (and why -wouldn't- russian soldiers expect bullets to the knees), again, if they were so good and actually had that opportunity....that they could?

Somehow, I don't think that my fellow americans are willing to contemplate what I would and could legally do if their existence was threatened by some foreign invader. Good for them - because I bet most of you wouldn't sign off on whatever bloodthirsty plan I had in mind. I'm making a beeline straight for their kids, for example......for their deliciously soft civilian belly. Or am I? Am I really so (permissably) evil? Well, in russians case, we have an answer. In mine....not so much. Good, goood...they still only suspect, rather than know, what horrible shit they'd have to overcome to win. I hope that makes them overwork for irrelevant goals. Defeat in detail, by another name.

[Jehanne]

Yeah, they uised to be russian soldiers, till they took a (ukranian) bullet to the knee? Which ones?

They were in uniform, fighting for Russia; their treatment in captivity is governed by international law. Even if you say that they are criminals, they are still entitled to due process under the Law.

[The Grand Nudger]

Who? Jehenne? Who? Are you aware of some mass execution by ukranian forces in the current russian invasion of ukraine that no one else is? Well shit..don't be stingy, share!

That's important, don't you think? That has something to say about whether or not we should give them patriot missiles..don't you think? Do you know something?

As far as I'm aware, captured russian conscripts are given the oppurtunity to call home( and not raped, or shot in the knee on principle) precisely because their being well treated annihilates russian pretense and casus belli. Tell me different. You see, global democracy is not actually a high ideal that needs a comprehensive deception to sell. It's a gutter ideal that relies only on the wishes of the least enfranchised. A lowest common denominator. It's not the best we can do, if we try real hard. It's the least, that takes no specific effort whatsoever.