My Almighty VS your argument against it

[vulcanlogician]

@Won2blv

Are you gonna respond to the things folks have said in your thread? Angrboda asked for some clarity on exactly what you mean, and that's where I'm at too.

Like could you give us a thesis statement, or a one-sentence summary of the overall point you are trying to make, please?

As usual, atheists are likely so far ahead of the OP in thinking about such issues that Won2blv is stumped about what to say next.

... that is, if he wasn't just pulling our leg to begin with.

Meh. He actually strikes me as someone who has put sufficient thought into the matter. Perhaps one of the reasons his OP was a little disorganized was his trying to cram too much of his own thinking into it.

[The Grand Nudger]

All of the other meanings on the shelf got pulled out of asses at some point, and whatever new or novel (unlikely, on both counts, imo) meaning a person arrives at..if any, will be equally pulled. We might broadly say that out of an infinite pool of manufactured meaning, some do better in human populations than others - better as in they persist. The things in this category tend not to be arbitrary, but absolutely tied to the hip of life conditions.

Wons alright, lol. Drops in time to time to give us glimpses into his own search for meaning better suited than the off the shelfs. I read the op as pure messianism.

[Belacqua]

Meaning is such an ambiguous word that it's difficult to know what someone really means when they say it.

This was my reaction, too. What does the word "meaning" refer to here?

Off the top of my head (and I'm pretty sleepy) meaning can mean:

1) conveyed information: "The sentence is garbled; its meaning is unclear."

2) devotion to a practice: "My meaning in life comes from my baseball card collection; I work on it every day."

3) influence: "The attempt was well-intended, but made no difference. In the end it was meaningless." 

4) significance: "Her gesture turned out to be quite meaningful, in that it made people aware of the issue." 

5) importance: "A job at the car dealership is meaningless; better to be a doctor and have a meaningful role." 

Christians think that, since God has written the world like a book, with us as characters, life can have meaning in the first sense, above. Our lives (like all objects or events) refer to something and convey a message which the wise can interpret.

I suspect that the assertion "I give my life my own meaning" refers to the second sense. It's saying that one decides for oneself what one is devoted to, whether this is culturally significant (doctor) or not (anime obsessive). If someone assumes that we have a moral imperative to use our lives for good, then he may judge that our chosen meaning (say, anime obsessive) is meaningless. That is, the meaning (devoted practice) that we have is pointless (meaningless). This may be an objection that a Christian would make against the atheist's claim that one creates one's own meaning -- your meaning might be trivial, thus, in fact, meaningless. 

3 - 5 are pretty similar, and are probably more what people mean when they say life without God would be meaningless. They think that if we all just live and then die and are forgotten, then all of our acts don't register in any permanent, transcendental way. Even the hero who saves a hundred lives -- what's the point, since all those people he saved are just going to die later anyway. 

Probably we want to be wary of sidestepping from 3-5 over to 2. "Your chosen life is meaningless!" is an accusation concerning 3- 5. "No it isn't; I've devoted myself to exactly what I enjoy most" is a reply based on 2.

[The Grand Nudger]

OP told you exactly what meaning was. Changing our evil ways and killing the devil. God is the thing that promises to fix what it had a hand in breaking. That's the meaning of all of this.

[vulcanlogician]

All of the other meanings on the shelf got pulled out of asses at some point, and whatever new or novel (unlikely, on both counts, imo) meaning a person arrives at..if any, will be equally pulled.  We might broadly say that out of an infinite pool of manufactured meaning, some do better in human populations than others - better as in they persist.  The things in this category tend not to be arbitrary, but absolutely tied to the hip of life conditions.

Wons alright, lol. Drops in time to time to give us glimpses into his own search for meaning better suited than the off the shelfs.  I read the op as pure messianism.

Kierkegaard did okay with pure messianism. Of course, most of us have issues with that approach, but, at the end of the day, it can be done well. I'm not opposed to Christians becoming Kierkegaards. In fact, the more Kierkegaard-like that a Christian becomes, the less annoying and cruel he is likely to be. So I'm all for it. 

Hell, one of the reasons religion ticked Kierkegaard off so much was how shallow and controlling it was. His list of grievances overlaps quite a bit with secularists' lists.

One thing that complicates our search for meaning is that we're often handed ready-made purposes for our lives... "make a 6 figure salary... have 1.5 kids, etc." and we have to go through and reject these things before we begin the process of creating our own meaning. The religious world is often pretty bad at passing shallow, empty meanings onto its adherents. But those shallow, empty meanings are chosen precisely because they cast a wide net over common life conditions. Making 6 figures does the trick for a ton of folks. The problem is when you realize that (for you personally) 6 figures won't make life meaningful. Then you have to get creative, OR you have to say "fuck it" Camus-style. But rejection of the pre-packaged meaning is an important part of all that. And by no means is it easy or obvious how to proceed when you decide to undertake that task.

[The Grand Nudger]

Secular humanism dips into the messianic well to good effect too. The role of savior is distributed between us, all of us the sacred thing. At it's core, I think it's formed around an inescapable observational truth. To the extent that people can be helped, they often need that help. We aren't always (or even often) in a position to save ourselves. Just not the nature of crisis.

The ready made purposes in our lives are the product of a long and vicious competitive process. It may be that some of the items we wish to discard are products of that environment, rather then useful to us on their own. Essentially, a religion of coca cola that was somehow prudent and beneficial would still have at least some items insisted on because those items were good at selling coke - and nothing more. I think the op is looking to jettison some of those things. Letting go of strict demands about a god's nature. Reformers work is never done. It reminds me of a quote from mark twain (I think) about writing that could also fit religion. It's easy, you just cross out all the wrong words.

Casting a wide net is a good thing for a religion, as the purpose and nature of a religion is to create a moral community. I think there are problems with separating meaning into deep and shallow pools. Suppose a person considered their ready made purpose and removed all of free riders..it's not inconceivable that the six figure salary with 1.5 kids thing would remain as a profound and binding moral belief of a community. That's why it exists in the first place. It's believed...and not without evidence, that six figures and a low number of dependents will help you avoid suffering, and give you the opportunity to help others (not the least of which, your one and a half children).

[vulcanlogician]

Casting a wide net is a good thing for a religion, as the purpose and nature of a religion is to create a moral community.  

Yeah, but to abuse your metaphor, sometimes you get dolphins in your tuna net. And they don't really belong there.

I think there are problems with separating meaning into deep and shallow pools.  Suppose a person considered their ready made purpose and removed all of free riders..it's not inconceivable that the six figure salary with 1.5 kids thing would remain as a profound and binding moral belief of a community.   That's why it exists in the first place.  It's believed...and not without evidence, that six figures and a low number of dependents will help you avoid suffering, and give you the opportunity to help others (not the least of which, your one and a half children).

If six figures does the job, then by all means, go for it.

But (excuse the tautology): if six figures doesn't work, then it doesn't work.

For a person who grew up in a severely abusive household, no amount of six figure salary may ever bring meaning into their lives. Maybe becoming a social worker who investigates abuse cases and tries to get abused kids out of their situations-- THAT is going to be incredibly meaningful... even though it only pays a meager five figures.

On the other hand, somebody raised in an impoverished home where they never felt like they had autonomy, that person might find an incredible depth of meaning in six figures. Six figures does the trick of addressing the existential anguish in a way that social worker accomplishments never could.

I think it's okay to separate meaning into deep and shallow pools, when that gives you perspective. I don't think everyone needs to do it. But (tautology #2): if you need to do it, then you need to do it. Not everyone needs to do it. But I sure do. And I'm not alone.

I always read the pamphlets that JWs offer me when they visit my front door. Quite often, they purport to answer the question: "What is the meaning of life?" Personally, I've always found their answer to be too shallow to be any good. And I make space in my imagination for people to find genuine meaning in Christianity. But the shit in those JW pamphlets is too shallow to get the job done for a thinking person. Period.

[The Grand Nudger]

The watchtower is my favorite propaganda mill. Here's something from jw.org that would surprise the shit out of me if you couldn;t find it in any pamphlet.

---

“The meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”—PSALM 37:11.

The Bible acknowledges that life is “filled with trouble.” (Job 14:1) Today, everyone is touched by tragedy of one sort or another. But some people feel utterly hopeless about life, as if there were no light on the horizon, no prospect for a better future. Is that how you feel? If so, be assured that the Bible offers genuine hope—not just for you but for all humankind. For example:

The Bible teaches that Jehovah God intended something far better for us.—Genesis 1:28.

Jehovah God promises to make our earth a paradise.—Isaiah 65:21-25.

The fulfillment of that promise is certain. Revelation 21:3, 4 says:

“The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

That hope is not mere wishful thinking. Jehovah God fully purposes to bring it to reality, and he has both the power and the desire to do so. The hope that the Bible holds out is reliable, and it provides a strong answer to the question “Why go on?”

---

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/...ving-hope/

Now, I think that's silly..but I would..on account of how I don't believe in gods and think their god is a raging dumpster fire on top of that. But it's not shallow. With regards to tautology number two, say a person leaves that faith because it no longer provides them with that hope - do they abandon hope, or go find another hope source?

It's overwhelmingly the latter. It's not they they rejected hope, the product on offer, that they need something else other than or not that - they wanted it very much and the witnesses were just plum out that day. Similar to the social worker and the poor kid example. Both people are searching for the same transaction - they have a disagreement as to how it's going to be achieved. The transactional agent. That's the whole disagreement between god botherers too.

[Alan V]

It seems to me that half the problem is that religious people trick others into thinking of meaning only from their own religious or spiritual perspectives. For them, "meaning" is a loaded term.

For me, meaning is more a series of physical questions. Am I making enough money? Am I eating well? Do I sleep well? Am I productive for my community and in accordance with my own priorities? And so on. Those are the things that give my life meaning, since they are all about the quality of my existence. And they are also largely objective and quantifiable. The successes or failures of my life relate to the answers to such questions, and I am satisfied or dissatisfied as a result. In the end, the meaning of my life may be that I have largely been a failure for instance.

Religious meaning, in contrast, is about our relationships with fantasy constructs.

[The Grand Nudger]

Just underneath the surface there, is the idea that religion is something that's done to people, not something they do. No one has ever been tricked into a religion. A persons religion is a description of their deepest and most genuinely held normative beliefs shared by a community.

Legal rights are a fantasy construct. There is no such thing except by our insistence on them.