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RE: Creator God Gets to Make the Rules
July 30, 2023 at 8:58 pm
(This post was last modified: July 30, 2023 at 9:06 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(July 24, 2023 at 7:21 pm)Ten Wrote: If there is a Creator god, is he allowed, by virtue of being the creator and controller of everything, to do what he wants? Even if it is unjust? Even if it doesn't make sense to his creations?
Does he have the right to kill us, to manipulate us, to demand worship?
Like, I'm talking about "right" as in we aren't allowed to be upset, we have no authority to stand on to challenge him because he made us, he owns us. We have no justification for our rebellion because we were created for his purposes.
The meaning of “allow” in this case is very poorly defined. ‘Allowed” by who? What exactly does it mean when the allower allows? Don’t do this or I’ll pout? Don’t do this or I will make you will pay a steeper price than it’s worth? Don’t do this because I will make it impossible for you to do this in the first place? Don’t do this because it is impossible for you to do it even without my doing anything? Does the allowing a matter of choice, it is a suggestion, or strong urging, or a matter of boundary between the possible and the impossible? So the question is unanswerable.
If you chose to not accept it, but can’t do anything about it, is it “allowed”?
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RE: Creator God Gets to Make the Rules
August 2, 2023 at 8:06 am
(July 30, 2023 at 6:57 pm)Peebothuhlu Wrote: Given the opening parameters of your thought experiment, the answer is simply "Yes'.
IF a Creator being creates something, thence that being is 'making' everything involved in said thing.
Of course, where things turn ploin shaped is when the ascribes of a Creator then go on to posit a whole raft of things that simply do not seem to line up with the said premise.
The creator being created everything. Though (Somehow) it both [redermined everything to unfold into its present state and YET also allows for 'Free will', which means that some aspects of its creation are no longer following dai predetermination... Somehow.
Then there's the assertion that said Creator being MUST be 'All loving'... while very easily defined happenings of "Not loving' and 'Un loving' demonstrably happens.
Hope that helps.
That's exactly it. I think what my dilemma was, that within this question were a whole slew of unstated facts about this Creator being, descriptions of its nature and the rest of the rules of reality, that were causing things to not fit right for me.
Because just the bare question: Can a Creator being do whatever it likes? Is answered by the other poster below who brings up the word " allowed" I used. Simply, just this question and nothing else, the answer is yes.
So you certainly helped me realize what exactly the other layers to it are and what felt off about this defense I hear so often, mostly from Christians. Because they're not JUST asking Can a Creator being do whatever it likes?" They're also describing the contradictory attributes of that being AND defining our relationship with it as supposed free to make choices as well as deserving love in a way we understand it.
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RE: Creator God Gets to Make the Rules
August 2, 2023 at 8:11 am
(July 30, 2023 at 8:58 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: The meaning of “allow” in this case is very poorly defined. ‘Allowed” by who? What exactly does it mean when the allower allows? Don’t do this or I’ll pout? Don’t do this or I will make you will pay a steeper price than it’s worth? Don’t do this because I will make it impossible for you to do this in the first place? Don’t do this because it is impossible for you to do it even without my doing anything? Does the allowing a matter of choice, it is a suggestion, or strong urging, or a matter of boundary between the possible and the impossible? So the question is unanswerable.
If you chose to not accept it, but can’t do anything about it, is it “allowed”?
that certainly simplified things for me, Anoma. Thanks. I didn't realize I used such a wiggly word but I see now clearly that was kinda stubbing my toe on the issue without realizing what it was doing there. And it certainly causes problems when we start talking about accountability. Accountable to who? What are the consequences of this or that? Especially if you created everything, including the rules.
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RE: Creator God Gets to Make the Rules
August 2, 2023 at 11:23 am
In a created rule scenario, no one is really accountable to anyone. That is, no one is accountable in fact. Does a god have a right to do what it wants with us? Well...not in fact - but it's going to do what it's going to do all the same. Do we have a right to complain? Well, complaining couldn't be bad...in fact....in the created rule scenario.....and we're going to do what we're going to do as well. A purely subjective framework cuts both ways. The god of the moral gutter.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Creator God Gets to Make the Rules
August 2, 2023 at 12:21 pm
(This post was last modified: August 2, 2023 at 12:21 pm by Bucky Ball.)
What we observe is what we would expect to see, in a universe ... if there were no gods.
No intervention when bad things happen, despite the promise to do so.
"Ask anything in my name etc ...bla bla bla".
Theists define their gods with various descriptors. "Good", "loving" "just" etc.
It could do whatever it wants, but if theists are correct, it would be constrained to do what is best.
Whatever that means, it would not include making innocent 5 year olds to suffer and painfully die with one of the pediatric bone cancers.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell 
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RE: Creator God Gets to Make the Rules
August 6, 2023 at 3:59 pm
(July 24, 2023 at 7:21 pm)Ten Wrote: If there is a Creator god, is he allowed, by virtue of being the creator and controller of everything, to do what he wants? Even if it is unjust? Even if it doesn't make sense to his creations?
Yes. Might makes right and all that tommyrot, wot? It was a problem when God was nuking cities and flooding planets. Nowadays he can barely burn a good impression of Cesare Borgia on toast.
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