France is Simply Saying Non to the Abayah

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Collapse is too strong.
But not be good for society seems a much more reasonable concern.

Consider, if all the Muslim girls now go to private religious schools, or home educated, what will be their life?  I suspect they won't receive much if an education at all and may well be married somewhat early.  In the UK teachers keep an eye out on Muslim girls for word of FGM, forced marriage, being shipped of to another country, and so on.  

And what about all those Christians in evangelical or Catholic schools?  Will they be taught evolution?  Will they be shipped to conversion camps if they're gay?  

I can't see much good coming from such things.

So, what's your solution? Outlaw religious freedom?

Boru

[FrustratedFool]

Banning religious garb in schools is already a restriction on religious freedom, so it's just a question of where would be best to draw the line. I'm fine with some restrictions, not with others.

In the UK we allow both private religious schools and home education, and religious garb in state schools. This has pros and cons.

In France, they allow private religious schools but ban religious garb in state schools. This has different pros and cons.

I could easily imagine a state which banned private religious and home education (isn't home ed already banned in Germany? I may be recalling that wrong) and also banned religious garb in state schools, same as I can imagine a state banning certain harmful religious practices, like FGM, infant male circumcision, halal/kosher meat, animal sacrifice, underage marriage, etc.

I think the UK liberal approach certainly the easiest, but it does lead to many unpleasant results. Perhaps we should slowly restrict religious harmful practices more, and separate church and state more as well. It's difficult because restrictions of religion have often led to terrible persecution in the past and that's not good either. Getting the balance right is hard.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Banning religious garb in schools is already a restriction on religious freedom, so it's just a question of where would be best to draw the line.  I'm fine with some restrictions, not with others.

In the UK we allow both private religious schools and home education, and religious garb in state schools.  This has pros and cons.

In France, they allow private religious schools but ban religious garb in state schools.  This has different pros and cons.

I could easily imagine a state which banned private religious and home education (isn't home ed already banned in Germany?  I may be recalling that wrong) and also banned religious garb in state schools, same as I can imagine a state banning certain harmful religious practices, like FGM, infant male circumcision, halal/kosher meat, animal sacrifice, underage marriage, etc.

I think the UK liberal approach certainly the easiest, but it does lead to many unpleasant results.  Perhaps we should slowly restrict religious harmful practices more, and separate church and state more as well.  It's difficult because restrictions of religion have often led to terrible persecution in the past and that's not good either.  Getting the balance right is hard.

When should we ban agnostic nihilism?

Boru

[FrustratedFool]

When it starts indoctrinating children with demonstrable falsehoods and mutilating the genitals of infants without medical cause. That sort of thing.

But I have nowhere called for any ideology to be banned. Merely certain practices. I could easily ask you in return when you want religious child sacrifice permitted and it'd be just as ridiculous.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

When it starts indoctrinating children with demonstrable falsehoods and mutilating the genitals of infants without medical cause.  That sort of thing.

But I have nowhere called for any ideology to be banned.  Merely certain practices.  I could easily ask you in return when you want religious child sacrifice permitted and it'd be just as ridiculous.

We seem to have veered from the topic of religious garb in state-funded schools.

Boru

[FrustratedFool]

A little, but the issue became what restrictions on religious freedom are best for society, and that was clearly in the line of discussing the banning of religious garb in state schools.

I raised the point that banning religious garb in state schools whilst allowing private religious education could easily result in worse outcomes for both the religious children in question and for society as a whole. You then expanded the scope into other areas, and I responded.

To draw it back to the specific religious restriction in question, I'm starting to think that you either allow religious garb in schools (like the UK) or ban both religious garb and private education. A mix, like France, seems like it may only isolate children of religious parents more with some likely unpleasant consequences.

[Leonardo17]

Well that would be profoundly racist wouldn’t it?
 
- I don’t think I agree with that. In US schools almost everyone is wearing large crosses etc. especially minority groups. So these and Jewish Kippas are to be banned.
 
Also, as a symbol, I have come to understand that the Hijap is simply bigger in size. And the message is much stronger. But that’s another issue, so I think they are absolutely right

Bold mine - Citation needed. 

This looks more like something pulled out of your ass than an actual fact.

Dafuq do you know about US schools?

I watched “Dangerous Minds” (Michelle Pfeifer – 1995)
 

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Correct me if I am wrong. But I am used to seeing huge crosses being worn by Afro-Americans and also by Hispanic Americans with smaller / less visible Christian symbols being worn by Americans with European ancestry.  So the 2011 law in France has banned these also. And I never saw such symbols being used so extensively in any European country either. But you are right, I didn’t see US schools for myself.
 
But anyway, I don’t think anyone can think or believe that the way in which we are dressed is completely neutral and is not related to any philosophical or religious view of the world. See China has now banned “clothes that may hurt the Nation’s feelings.”
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-resid...48873.html
 
So it may be a headscarf, It may be a Manowar T-shirt, it can be a Thor’s hammer necklace or a Tattoo on you face like Mike Tyson’s tattoo (or a Hangover II tattoo on your face if you prefer). Objects are talking. So a veil that covers the entire body of a woman turning her into some sort of shadow or ghost is also not neutral and innocent either. In fact I did experience that last week in our south-western coast. If you can fill a place with enough women dressed like that, you end up with a huge trophy that says “See, see, this is the Land of Allah, this is a Muslim country, All of you beware”.
 
So although the issue is completely childish and Ego based (like on a second Chakra level), it’s still quite serious. And it’s not only about France. All European nations have their own sets of law that regulate dresses with religious connotations in schools, public areas and any other area as well.

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[Leonardo17]

Is that a good thing, though?

Is it beneficial for society to have lots of religious schools specifically for Muslims, Christians, Jews etc and everyone else in state school?

France, like most countries, already has plenty of private religious schools. The collapse of society due to the presence of these schools is conspicuous by its absence.

Boru

No the education system in Continental Europe does not have that. There are only 1-2 such schools here and there. Primary education is financed by the state and these are the schools rich-kids are attending as well. The only private college in France is the American University in Paris (unless it has changed since the early 2000’s).
 

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So Muslim kids will all have to remove their headscarves until the age of 18. And again, this is good. So parents will not be able to impose that on their kids (to make them get used to it). But, if she really believes in it, she is free to wear whatever she likes once she is 18.
 
So Laicité means freedom from religion + Freedom of religion. And I think I totally support this policy of the French Government.

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[Leonardo17]

A little, but the issue became what restrictions on religious freedom are best for society, and that was clearly in the line of discussing the banning of religious garb in state schools.

I raised the point that banning religious garb in state schools whilst allowing private religious education could easily result in worse outcomes for both the religious children in question and for society as a whole.  You then expanded the scope into other areas, and I responded.

To draw it back to the specific religious restriction in question, I'm starting to think that you either allow religious garb in schools (like the UK) or ban both religious garb and private education.  A mix, like France, seems like it may only isolate children of religious parents more with some likely unpleasant consequences.

As I said before: There is no “one size fits all” approach in these issues. And of course these issues are being debated, evaluated and re-evaluated in every society in every decade or so.
 

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So no one wants to cut girls from schools. But there is no such risk in France. The state is monitoring that very closely.
 
The issue of genital mutilation + Forced marriage etc. is also being closely monitored in almost all European nations. I’ve heard about Girls being sent back to Senegal being mutilated and force married there etc.
 
But we must remember this: Belgium and France are countries with a colonial past. So they have a way of handling these things that are different from the German / English or even Turkish way of dealing with these things.
 
But one thing is for sure: Yes people have different background’s, different cultures and different ways of doing things, But at some point, authorities need to make some decisions too.
 
And a personal note on that: No one can simply keep living in the 8th century AD in the 2023. But that’s only my personal opinion on these issues
 

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[no one]

Let's just ban religion, problem solved.