UBI support Poll

[h4ym4n]

I guess this would also give all the non documented illegal immigrants flooding the US a living wage working or not?

No questions asked?

[neil]

What is your position on implementing something like a Universal Basic Income (UBI)?

A lot of times when people talk about UBI, it has to do with preventing serious poverty, homelessness, etc. 

We ought to keep in mind, too, that it could bring about an unprecedented flourishing of the arts. 

I read an article recently about classical musicians, including composers, and how the current system basically makes it impossible for most people who want to pursue this seriously. Very few make it to union symphony jobs, and even these are not completely secure. The rest do gig work for very little money, or teach if they're lucky. But it's precarious for all but a very few, and those who can live on it are almost always those who come from privileged backgrounds -- they grew up with the money and connections to get the best training and introductions. 

Just think of all the talent there is out there, wasting away because the person had to get a non-music job to survive. If they all had UBI, groups and orchestras could be formed based on musical values alone. 

Likewise the visual arts. Painting takes a hell of a lot of time. You can't sell insurance all day and then go home and do your best work. 

This is one of the main reasons I moved to Japan many years ago. If I lived in the US, I'd have to get a job simply to get reasonable health insurance -- though even those aren't as good as the government plan I have here.

When people talk about UBI, they should also keep in mind that if it isn't implemented in a mathematically, economically, and logically sound way, it could cause an increase in serious poverty, homelessness, etc. It could also have a counteractive effect on the flourishing of the arts.

I think a sound implementation of UBI could also lead to a reduction in crime along with a financial reduction for society in overhead to deal with crime.

[neil]

So there would be no incentive to be the top of your field?

Basically it depends, but it's more involved and in the long run, the incentive to work, compete, or get to the top of your field would still exist.

If I knew that I'd get guaranteed money for life to pay my rent, buy food, pay for gas for my car and other bills without having to work, I certainly have no incentive to have a day job.

However, I know this won't happen (until we get automation, robotics, and other advancements in technology to do our work for us), because guaranteed money for life means there's no reason for anyone to have a day job. It's people working day jobs that we use to provide each other with the goods & services we use today.

In the short run, guaranteed money for life may result in a disincentive to work while at the same time still providing us with food, shelter, etc. But in the long run, that's not sustainable, because scarcity of goods and services would skyrocket, so people would have to go back to work to reverse that. BTW being self sufficient is far more work for far less.

Inflation would also undermine the purchasing power of guaranteed money for life that's supposed to be enough to pay for rent, food, etc. The rate would have to be increased & that would just lead to the same result 

That's why a UBI shouldn't be a fixed rate and ought to fluctuate with the performance of the economy; by implementing a UBI this way, the incentive loss dilemma is eliminted.

[neil]

I think capitalism is at odds with a UBI.  I'm not sure how to settle that conflict.

Can you elaborate on this?

Depending on what you mean by capitalism, I may simply say something like, "then too bad for capitalism."

[neil]

Why would it be?  In what way does a ubi interfere with the private ownership of trade and industry?  How would it interfere with for profit enterprise?

For the low price of eradicating oligarchy we could increase the free flow of capital between producers and consumers.  With a ubi conceived as stakeholder profit we could likely eliminate many social services and welfare contracts.  The grain industry might get gutted, I guess?

There are problems with today's implementation social/welfare programs that can be fixed, mitigated, or perhaps even eliminated by shifting gears to implementing a UBI, such as the wasteful & unnecessary overhead involved in running those programs, and the scams & fraud involved.

[neil]

Where does all this extra money come from to pay nonworking people?

We could start requiring corporations to pay taxes. Or take a fraction of the Pentagon's budget. 

The US has enough money. 

But I admit it's a utopian scheme. There's no way that, realistically, we can expect Washington to reorient itself away from war towards a secure peace.

Yup!

The US government has given away so much money, that belongs to US taxpayers, to other countries - recently more than $75 billion to Ukraine, $14.5 billion to Israel, and $345 million to Taiwan. Over time, the US has given away hundreds of billions of dollars of US taxpayer money.

Maybe the US government ought to stop giving away money to other countries, at least until it solves problems at home such as poverty, homelessness, etc.

We ought to also bring home overseas troops and use money being spent on that for domestic issues instead. How much of our military spending is for being the world police - protecting overseas industrial or corporate interests? Maybe they ought to pay for their security out of their own pockets instead of mooching off of US taxpayers; that would save us huge amounts of money that could instead be used to help individuals and families in the US that could benefit from it. There are also other cost saving measures, such as cutting funding for NATO and the UN, that we could implement to save money that's being given away.

[neil]

I guess this would also give all the non documented illegal immigrants flooding the US a living wage working or not?

No questions asked?

Nope, not if it were up to me. Only US citizens ought to be entitled to a single UBI penny, in the US. I'm pretty sure other countries would have the same type of policy if they implemented a UBI for their citizens.

[Belacqua]

I guess this would also give all the non documented illegal immigrants flooding the US a living wage working or not?

No questions asked?

That's a worry. And perhaps a fatal flaw. 

Though the basic idea is simple, it would have to be implemented in a careful way, and I don't know what all would be necessary to make it work. 

Perhaps limit it to those who legally attain citizenship.

But there's no question that in any big program like this, there's going to be cheats, and addicts and others who make poor use of it. The question is whether the number of such undesirables is sufficient to outweigh the benefits to the rest of us.

[Belacqua]

When people talk about UBI, they should also keep in mind that if it isn't implemented in a mathematically, economically, and logically sound way, it could cause an increase in serious poverty, homelessness, etc. It could also have a counteractive effect on the flourishing of the arts.

I think a sound implementation of UBI could also lead to a reduction in crime along with a financial reduction for society in overhead to deal with crime.

Yes, it would have to be done right. And that's a big "if," given what we've seen with the implementation of other new government programs. 

I guess there are pilot programs around the world, and it will be interesting to keep an eye on which ones work best. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_..._the_world

Here in Japan, there's a new political party led by a VERY charismatic young man, who advocates a limited UBI which only kicks in when inflation is beneath a certain percentage. I'm not smart enough to know all the economic issues, but that kind of thing might make sense.

[Belacqua]

We could start requiring corporations to pay taxes. Or take a fraction of the Pentagon's budget. 

The US has enough money. 

But I admit it's a utopian scheme. There's no way that, realistically, we can expect Washington to reorient itself away from war towards a secure peace.

Yup!

The US government has given away so much money, that belongs to US taxpayers, to other countries - recently more than $75 billion to Ukraine, $14.5 billion to Israel, and $345 million to Taiwan. Over time, the US has given away hundreds of billions of dollars of US taxpayer money.

Maybe the US government ought to stop giving away money to other countries, at least until it solves problems at home such as poverty, homelessness, etc.

We ought to also bring home overseas troops and use money being spent on that for domestic issues instead. How much of our military spending is for being the world police - protecting overseas industrial or corporate interests? Maybe they ought to pay for their security out of their own pockets instead of mooching off of US taxpayers; that would save us huge amounts of money that could instead be used to help individuals and families in the US that could benefit from it. There are also other cost saving measures, such as cutting funding for NATO and the UN, that we could implement to save money that's being given away.

The degree to which the US economy relies on violence and the threat of violence is obscene.