US Strikes on Iran (Operation Epic Fury)

[Leonardo17]

Ivan Denisovich:
 
“Sure, sure. Bad wrong Hamas attacked poor, poor Israel just because. There was no history of Israel oppressing Palestinians or stealing their lands. Israel also isn't illegally occupying Palestine and Nakba hasn’t happened. If you want to play propagandist then at least learn a little.
Also nice equivocation between terrorist attack and genocide. It is plain to see that your sympathy lies with genocidal regime. Only question is why.”
 
- It’s because I don’t know what’s going on there. I do understand the logic of the crusades. The logic of Zionism is actually the logic of the crusades multiplied by ten.
 
But there is still room for some sort of logic there. We are not in the early 1950’s. They have already established a Jewish state there. So my proposal is to respect that Jewish state as a sovereign state but (at the same time) leave the Palestinians alone. That’s what I chose to believe
 
“All you're saying amount to bullshit apologia of genocidal regime. I hope it is caused by profound ignorance and not fascist sympathies.”
 
- I’m not a fascist or even a populist. But I have to admit that I don’t really understand the Jewish cause in its full scope. I’m mostly looking for quick fixes to end this problem as soon as possible. The only solution I see is that everybody would simply shut up and let the UN do the work here. And then everybody simply complies with whatever the UN decides about this whole situation.
 
I think there cannot be another solution to this problem here.
 
“Just as Hitler was right about USSR, yes?”
 
Iran is not the USSR. The USSR was (despite everything) a superpower with some sort of valid social contract of its own. The USSR Especially under Lenin + Stalin was a place very few people would want to live. But it was still an experiment. They believed in a society without social classes and everything they did was within the framework of an attempt to make it work. And if they did nothing, they stood up to fascism and won.
 
The IRI is very different from that. Religious people from all around the world would tell you that their enterprise was complete BS from the very beginning. One could make deals with the USSR. What deal can you make with a regime that murder its own people, puts 30,000 of them in a grave in just two days?
 
 
“I can't. But US regime went crazy about years or two ago with trump re-election (not that US was shining beacon of hope before) and Israel was crazy since beginning - see Nakba.”
 
- We need some sort of expertise here. All I know about the history of Israel is the series of war that followed with almost all Arab countries starting from the day of the foundation of the state of Israel. In the 60’s and 70’s we had famous left-wing activists going to Palestine to join forces with the Palestinian resistance back in these days.
 
/As I said: I don’t have a ready solution. But I am still going to insist on our moral responsibility to find a solution. Just today I read about a poor Palestinian farmer who was kidnapped by Jewish settlers and beaten + humiliated by them for no reason. The only question I’m asking is “Is this going to go on forever?”
 
“Why exactly should Europeans help fascist warmonger on Israel’s leash?”
 
- Because the IRI is a threat to everyone including the Iranian people and because Israel is right about this just like the Ukrainians are right about Putin. As I said: Populist leaders are usually wrong about everything but sometimes they are right despite the fact that they are not very likable people to begin with
 
Desse 23:
 
“Likewise for Italian ships that Italy puts in harms way supporting a fucking US aggression towards another country. Would that look like "self defense" to you?”
 
- Since Europe has recently added the IRG to the list of terrorist organizations my answer would be “yes”.
 

/ As a general remark: Netanyahu has a warrant of arrest on him because of his war crimes. But if you look at all the things that Iran has been doing, murdering your own people, jailing innocent people, supporting acts of terrorism, being a completely irrational regime with no respect for the international order and no respect for basic human principles the two simply do not compare.
 
I’m very saddened by what Israel is doing to Lebanon these days. The only issue is that Lebanese cities are packed with propaganda pictures of Hezbollah + Hamas and it really looks like Lebanon is currently owned by these Iranian proxies. So how can you put all of the blame on Israel?
 
The whole thing is messed up.
 
One of the main solution to this problem (despite the contradiction) is to have more secular / more rational Middle-Eastern governments. There won’t be a solution as long as fanatics are in charge in both sides. The only solution is logical people on both sides who are ready to talk with one another. Maybe Netanyahu is not that. I‘ll grant you that. But the IRI isn’t that either.
 
We need to remind ourselves of some basic issues here: This planet is wide and fertile and full of riches. The Planet or God does not say “Yes there is room for you but not for you”. There is plenty of room for everyone here. And all wars are basically BS if you at it.
 
So I choose to be part of people who believe in solutions here. And since I’m not an expert, I think high IQ people at the UN should do that instead of me and everybody should respect these resolutions. That’s the only solution I see here

[Deesse23]

Desse 23:
 
“Likewise for Italian ships that Italy puts in harms way supporting a fucking US aggression towards another country. Would that look like "self defense" to you?”
 
- Since Europe has recently added the IRG to the list of terrorist organizations my answer would be “yes”.
 

Which part of "Italy putting its ships into foreign waters, far away from Italy, does not equal self defense of Italy" did you not understand? Please note how the IRG is completely irrelevant to the issue.

[Ivan Denisovich]

It’s because I don’t know what’s going on there. I do understand the logic of the crusades. The logic of Zionism is actually the logic of the crusades multiplied by ten.

Then you close your eyes to reality as I provided you with multiple links about what is happening there.
 

But there is still room for some sort of logic there. We are not in the early 1950’s. They have already established a Jewish state there. So my proposal is to respect that Jewish state as a sovereign state but (at the same time) leave the Palestinians alone. That’s what I chose to believe

My proposal is armed intervention or at very least sanctions and ICJ trial for israel leadership coupled with israel being forced to respect UN resolutions.
 

I’m not a fascist or even a populist. But I have to admit that I don’t really understand the Jewish cause in its full scope. I’m mostly looking for quick fixes to end this problem as soon as possible. The only solution I see is that everybody would simply shut up and let the UN do the work here. And then everybody simply complies with whatever the UN decides about this whole situation.

It's israel that is pissing on UN resolutions and international law in addition to being genocidal regime. First step to justice in this case is harsh punishment of this rogue state. Sadly this is about as probable as putler turning to be a nicest man in the world.
 

Iran is not the USSR.

Of course not. There were very few countries as evil as USSR.

The USSR was (despite everything) a superpower with some sort of valid social contract of its own. The USSR Especially under Lenin + Stalin was a place very few people would want to live. But it was still an experiment. They believed in a society without social classes and everything they did was within the framework of an attempt to make it work. And if they did nothing, they stood up to fascism and won.

USSR was Upper Volta with rockets built on inhumane violence. It still might have been improvement over tsarist Russia but that only speaks about how horrible old regime was. They also helped fascism to start a war, let's not forget about this.
 

The IRI is very different from that. Religious people from all around the world would tell you that their enterprise was complete BS from the very beginning. One could make deals with the USSR. What deal can you make with a regime that murder its own people, puts 30,000 of them in a grave in just two days?

I don't give a shit about religious people blather.

One certainly could make deals with USSR, Adolf Hitler would swore by it were he alive. As for your claims about Iran - provide reputable sources for your numbers and then learn a little about world you live in. USSR was guilty of Holodomor and Great Terror to name just two of it's monstrous crimes and yet you deem it deal worthy whereas Iran with it's small potato body count (in comparison to USSR that is) you revile. It's a curious perspective I have to admit, though absurd would be a far better descriptor for it.
 

We need some sort of expertise here. All I know about the history of Israel is the series of war that followed with almost all Arab countries starting from the day of the foundation of the state of Israel. In the 60’s and 70’s we had famous left-wing activists going to Palestine to join forces with the Palestinian resistance back in these days.

It's just you who need education. I already provided you with multiple links, you just have to read them.
 

As I said: I don’t have a ready solution. But I am still going to insist on our moral responsibility to find a solution. Just today I read about a poor Palestinian farmer who was kidnapped by Jewish settlers and beaten + humiliated by them for no reason. The only question I’m asking is “Is this going to go on forever?”

You're just random dude on the internet so whatever solution you have or don't have is meaningless. israel does not give a shit about UN so it obviously wouldn't care were you to have a "solution". It's also quite curious how you suddenly found sympathy for Palestinians.
 

Because the IRI is a threat to everyone including the Iranian people and because Israel is right about this just like the Ukrainians are right about Putin. As I said: Populist leaders are usually wrong about everything but sometimes they are right despite the fact that they are not very likable people to begin with

Your bias and ignorance is showing again. It's israel that is warmonger and Iran however unpalatable it regime might be is only defending itself. Also netanyahu isn't populist but I suppose you simply love that word considering how often you wrongly use it to describe him.
 

As a general remark: Netanyahu has a warrant of arrest on him because of his war crimes. But if you look at all the things that Iran has been doing, murdering your own people, jailing innocent people, supporting acts of terrorism, being a completely irrational regime with no respect for the international order and no respect for basic human principles the two simply do not compare.

israel is guilty of fucking genocide. It shits on UN resolutions and oppresses Palestinians daily. Now it started a war just because it felt like and yet you still yammer about how it victim is bad while making some token condemnations of genocidal regime.

You're right that those two does not compare. You're simply too ignorant to grasp that israel is far greater evil.
 

I’m very saddened by what Israel is doing to Lebanon these days. The only issue is that Lebanese cities are packed with propaganda pictures of Hezbollah + Hamas and it really looks like Lebanon is currently owned by these Iranian proxies. So how can you put all of the blame on Israel?

So propaganda posters are enough of a justification for unspecified acts of aggression israel is making toward Lebanon? Is there anything that israel can do to make you stop defending it? Obviously genocide isn't enough.
 

The whole thing is messed up.

It's your moral compass that is messed up. If you have it at all.
 

One of the main solution to this problem (despite the contradiction) is to have more secular / more rational Middle-Eastern governments. There won’t be a solution as long as fanatics are in charge in both sides. The only solution is logical people on both sides who are ready to talk with one another. Maybe Netanyahu is not that. I‘ll grant you that. But the IRI isn’t that either.

Solution to this would be UN forces in Tel Aviv. It would end this rogue state blatant disregard for international law but such happening is about as probable as trump becoming buddhist monk.

[Deesse23]

The USSR was (despite everything) a superpower with some sort of valid social contract of its own.

How/when did the people of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Belarus "sign" this contract?

And if they did nothing, they stood up to fascism and won. 

Here is a quick-and-dirty history lesson for you. 

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

 But it was still an experiment. They believed in a society without social classes and everything they did was within the framework of an attempt to make it work.

Even for you, this a stunning display of historical ignorance.

Boru

[Leonardo17]

Desse23:
 
“Which part of "Italy putting its ships into foreign waters, far away from Italy, does not equal self defense of Italy" did you not understand? Please note how the IRG is completely irrelevant to the issue.”
 
By prohibiting ships that bring oil + Gas + fertilizer + other important material to Europe Iran is putting pressure on the economy of the entire planet. This is why 6 countries have already pledged their help to the US in securing the Hormuz straight.
 
+ Iran is even hitting refineries in officially neutral countries. It’s aim is to harm global economy.
 
/ The silly part is that the US is letting Iranian oil tankers through the Strait of Hormuz + Putin is also able to sell his oil on global markets because the sanctions have been temporarily lifted
 
Ivan Denisovich:
 
- No. I understand what you are saying. There won’t be armed intervention of Israel because they have very powerful lobbies in western countries. They wouldn’t be able to resettle Israel if this wasn’t so.
 
“It's israel that is pissing on UN resolutions and international law in addition to being genocidal regime. First step to justice in this case is harsh punishment of this rogue state. Sadly this is about as probable as putler turning to be a nicest man in the world.”
 
- You are not wrong on this. Yet: Why are the Muslim nations of the region so silly (as a general rule). Almost all of them are some sort of rogue state and Saudi Arabian States are all backward monarchies. And the population is generally uneducated, poor and miserable. In the 60’s and 70’s there was this Arab republican nationalism that aimed to rebuild these nations after decades of colonialism. But it didn’t work (for this or that reason: I am not so sure). So what do you do if you are a tiny state right in the middle of such countries that are all hostile to your very existence?
 
/ So I agree with the need to stop Israel at some point. And it’s probably the US who is going to do that. But on the issue of Iran, there are contradicting voices even in the typical left-wing media. Some call it a huge mistake by D. Trump. Yet other (like me) are still seeing the facts. If the Strait of Hormuz is so important, you need to have a logical actor in that part of the world. The other option is to comply to the folly of those who control that water way and I don’t see how this can be an option

“One certainly could make deals with USSR, Adolf Hitler would swore by it were he alive. As for your claims about Iran - provide reputable sources for your numbers and then learn a little about world you live in. USSR was guilty of Holodomor and Great Terror to name just two of it's monstrous crimes and yet you deem it deal worthy whereas Iran with it's small potato body count (in comparison to USSR that is) you revile. It's a curious perspective I have to admit, though absurd would be a far better descriptor for it.”
 
- You are not entirely wrong. But the USSR sent the first cosmonaut, woman and animal and artificial satellite to space. The ISS is based on US-Russian (Soviet) scientific collaboration. They invented modules that would be added to one another once out of the atmosphere.
 
Yes, Under Stalin there were more than 20 million deaths (executions, gulags, famine and WWII) and Lenin did not fare much better than him.
 
But they still did not start WWIII during the missile crisis. In fact they did everything to avoid it. I also remember of the nuclear non-proliferation treaties etc. The Soviets were trustworthy once you had a treaty with them. If Iran was in command during the Cuban missile crisis what do you think would have happened?
 
- This is why I have this extra dislike for the current Russian regime. They lack the rational element that the USSR had somehow.
 
“It's israel that is warmonger and Iran however unpalatable it regime might be is only defending itself. Also netanyahu isn't populist but I suppose you simply love that word considering how often you wrongly use it to describe him.”
 
- Iran has or had a nuclear program. And it’s not just Netanyahu. All Israelis interviewed on TV are mentioning 1) missiles that are being sent from Iran or from its proxies 2) 60% enriched Uranium which is way above the need for civilian / energy usage.
 
/These are the facts.
 
Populist does not equal fascists. Populist are people who want to be fascists but usually the population sees through them and stops them before they can become real fascists. Don’t you agree?
 
“israel is guilty of fucking genocide. It shits on UN resolutions and oppresses Palestinians daily. Now it started a war just because it felt like and yet you still yammer about how it victim is bad while making some token condemnations of genocidal regime.
You're right that those two does not compare. You're simply too ignorant to grasp that israel is far greater evil.”
 
- That’s because international world order is still at its infancy. We poor humans still do not have a Society of Nations that are capable of punishing such wrongdoers, in this case, Netanyahu. But there is still an arrest warrant on him. And he should be judged. But it’s the same in Iran. Did you read about these soccer player girls in Australia? Is threatening teenager with the lives of their families in line with international law?
 
/So you need to understand redneck / right wing people better. Sometimes, in life too, you need to find your own solutions. But I said “sometimes”. As the human race we should hold on to our institutions so maybe next time we won’t need strong figure to solve this kind of problem for us. Because that’s what we are doing. We are saying “Oh I hate you! I hate you so much!” while expecting them to solve things for us. And this is what makes them strong. Not the fact that they are wannabe fascists
 
“So propaganda posters are enough of a justification for unspecified acts of aggression israel is making toward Lebanon? Is there anything that israel can do to make you stop defending it? Obviously genocide isn't enough.”
 
What would you do if Tichuana was filled with the posters of the perpetrators of 9/11. And not for a week or so, but for decades? What do you think would eventually happen?
 
“Solution to this would be UN forces in Tel Aviv. It would end this rogue state blatant disregard for international law but such happening is about as probable as trump becoming buddhist monk.”
 
- That’s what I am saying. The UN is at its infancy. It is simply passing as Israeli tanks I rolling up toward the upper parts of Lebanon. Israel is even telling them to move away in some cases.
 
As I said: This is a world that is thriving toward more civilization and mutual respect. It would be an exaggeration to say that we’re on our way to end Barbary altogether. But we still have to try to decrease barbary if you know what I am saying


 
Desse23:
 
- That’s the nature of the proletariat dictatorship. Socialist ideology dictates itself on the people until people become smart enough that all of this is for their own good. None of it worked but that was the idea. There was this moral compass that was based on ideology. Iran doesn’t have that (just like Putin if you want)
 
- What’s the final image? I cannot read it
 
BrianBoru:
 
- I mean it ended up being George Orwell’s “Animal Farm”. But there were communist values. Communist work ethics. The communist doctrine was nothing like Hitler’s completely sick ideology either. There are still communists in this world too. While admitting that the first experiment failed rather badly, many are still critical of our liberal values and believe that communist ideals are simply better.
 
So this is not everything but it’s still something.
 
I don’t see anything that looks like “something” in the IRI

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

- I mean it ended up being George Orwell’s “Animal Farm”. But there were communist values. Communist work ethics. The communist doctrine was nothing like Hitler’s completely sick ideology either. There are still communists in this world too. While admitting that the first experiment failed rather badly, many are still critical of our liberal values and believe that communist ideals are simply better.

I was referring to your implication that the USSR made any kind of an effort to create a classless society. Of all the major figures in the October Revolution, the only one who was fully committed to a classless ‘worker’s paradise’ was Trotsky, and he wound up in Mexico City with an ice axe in his skull.

Boru

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's too hard to take @Leonardo17 seriously.

[awty]

If Leo keeps on he will be in line for a job with the Trump administration. Perhaps as official ass-kisser.

[Fireball]

If Leo keeps on he will be in line for a job with the Trump administration.  Perhaps as official ass-kisser.

Did you know? The difference between a brown-noser and an ass-kisser is a matter of depth perception.