If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong

[awty]

Oh I dont know about that.  The worst people we can think of probably spent a lot of time performing moral virtue.  You always hear in the serial killer documentaries how the elderly neighbor remembered so and so being the nicest boy.  At the risk of diving deeply there are plenty of offenders who are disgusted by their own behavior and still can’t seem to help themselves.  

All very interesting, but I’m not sure why people doing bad things would mean that those things weren’t or couldn’t be objectively bad?  It’s not as if I think to myself “x would be bad”….until someone does x, and then , suddenly…it’s not bad anymore because they did it?  Likewise, I’ve never thought that just because some person doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with x that means there’s nothing wrong with x.

What’s more troubling for your own beliefs, though, is that you contend that we live in a world with a god…and Saville did what he did in that world.  If not feeling that obligation means that it isn’t objective then gods obligations are not objective.  Just someone’s opinion.  

Is that what you believe?  That morality is just opinion?  I have opinions, you have opinions, god has opinions, we all have opinions.  Let’s try something.  If I told you that it was my opinion that I’m an extremely poor golfer…do you think it’s possible that I’m right about that?  That my opinion isn’t -just- my opinion, that my opinion is a correct opinion?  A factually accurate opinion.  An objectively true opinion?

Point being- that something -is- your/our/gods opinion won’t make it true unless we defer to subjectivism…..but neither does the fact that we all -have- opinions and even varying opinions demonstrate that a given opinion is not objectively true.  Wouldn’t you agree?

I'm only talking about a world without a deity. In this case, Jimmy Saville lived a full life. From his perspective, it was great and fulfilling. He was never caught and lived to his 80s. Died happy, believing his reputation was intact. He got to fulfill his fetish. From his point of view, why should he care what the rest of society thinks? What obligation does he have to care? He lived the best version of life from his perspective.

Administrator Notice
I suggest treading very lightly on the topic of a pedophile.  There won't be another warning.

[The Architect Of Fate]

What did God do about Jimmy Saville? Did He go Old Testament on him or put visions of hellfire in his mind? Even if God existed, Jimmy Saville still lived a full life without any punishment in this world, and even if hellfire awaits him, the concept of eternal punishment wouldn’t necessarily prove objective morality.

I love how he refuses to engage with any of this and thinks that falsely calling it "changing the subject" makes it go away. He hasn’t shown he has any moral leg to stand on, just assertions of moral superiority.

[Paleophyte]

Of course I don’t agree. Be less stupid.

Boru

What objective standard would make anything right or wrong without God?

By the obvious standard that morality must agree with an underlying physical reality.

Also, by the observable fact that the adherents of religion ignore God when it gets inconvenient. For instance, when was the last time you walked into a bank with a whip and started scourging the tellers? When was the last time you stoned a member of the community? Burned a witch?

I didn't think so.

[Paleophyte]

I'm only talking about a world without a deity. In this case, Jimmy Saville lived a full life. From his perspective, it was great and fulfilling. He was never caught and lived to his 80s. Died happy, believing his reputation was intact. He got to fulfill his fetish. From his point of view, why should he care what the rest of society thinks? What obligation does he have to care? He lived the best version of life from his perspective.

From his point of view, he clearly doesn't care what society thinks. What part of him being a horrible person did you not understand?

Why is it that these evangelicals have such a hard time with morality?

[The Grand Nudger]

What did God do about Jimmy Saville? Did He go Old Testament on him or put visions of hellfire in his mind? Even if God existed, Jimmy Saville still lived a full life without any punishment in this world, and even if hellfire awaits him, the concept of eternal punishment wouldn’t necessarily prove objective morality.

I love how he refuses to engage with any of this and thinks that falsely calling it "changing the subject" makes it go away. He hasn’t shown he has any moral leg to stand on, just assertions of moral superiority.

Call the wrong guy bald and god sends she bears.  Diddle kids and he makes you famous, or the pope. From a moral objectivists pov this is strange behavior to say the least, unless ofc gods alot like Jimmy.

[Fake Messiah]

Yeah, there is something about this guy that he isn't satisfied with society having measures to punish bad people, but they also need to be guilty of some objective moral laws of the universe.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Yeah, there is something about this guy that he isn't satisfied with society having measures to punish bad people, but they also need to be guilty of some objective moral laws of the universe.

As if that would make any difference to anything on the ground

[The Architect Of Fate]

Let’s be clear: evil people don’t care whether there is a god. No amount of divine presence has ever stopped someone like Jimmy Savile; they simply don’t care. Short of God striking him down with a lightning bolt, God is an utter non-factor. Christians can stand and preach, pointing to their magic book, and speak of rewards and hellfire. It makes no more difference than if they hadn't said a word all there so called objective morality is a series of assertions .

[Deesse23]

Don't forget: probably jimmy just has been forgiven by god, just because.

All this bullshit about objective divine morals, while you just get a pardon from god at random.

It's all full blown nonsense

[Ravenshire]

Under atheism (whatever the fuck that means since atheists can barely agree on anything) things are just as right or wrong as they are in society in general. Evil is more a creation of the church, used by the church to control people. It's also a word used to allegorically describe something we consider especially bad. Personally I don't believe that "evil" is an actual force in the world.

Let me get this straight. Nothing is evil objectively? Nothing is bad?

You really don't read for comprehension, do you? I never said nothing is bad. Perhaps you can re-read my post and comment on where you missed what I was saying.

Or, are you just trying to build a straw-man army?!?