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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 3:24 pm
(This post was last modified: Yesterday at 3:26 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(Yesterday at 2:52 pm)Sheldon Wrote: It's likely this would have its origins in our early evolution, I mean instincts or the ability to understand that limiting harm among animals that were evolving to live in societal groups has a survival advantage.
Sure. There are alot of good things that are good-for-us. OFC…There are a lot of good things that aren’t, too. Same with bad. Which is why I don’t personally think that morality is a matter of our evolutionary biology explicitly or exclusively.
It is pretty lucky (or unlucky depending on how we look at it) that our dinner seeking apparatus has other uses. Can tease out other relationships that…again in my opinion, are just as real.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 3:28 pm
(Yesterday at 9:07 am)AngelThMan Wrote: (Yesterday at 8:58 am)Sheldon Wrote: Jimmy Saville was a Catholic, he received a Papal medal, so he wasn't bound by theistic morals, and what's more, according to your religion he could still have been saved and spend eternity in Heaven. Now it's just my opinion of course, as are all moral claims, but I find that idea morally repugnant.
You really don't understand logic or the argument. This is just foolish. I will give you one last chance to answer the first question. If you can't respond properly, we're done:
Under atheism, is anything right or wrong or evil? If Yes, what standard are you appealing to? After you answer that, I can engage with other topics if you're interested
Under atheism (whatever the fuck that means since atheists can barely agree on anything) things are just as right or wrong as they are in society in general. Evil is more a creation of the church, used by the church to control people. It's also a word used to allegorically describe something we consider especially bad. Personally I don't believe that "evil" is an actual force in the world.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 3:37 pm
…but what if there were a walrus in your garage? What then? Would evil exist if there were a walrus in your garage?
Or would that only rise to the level of mischief?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 3:39 pm
(Yesterday at 3:37 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: …but what if there were a walrus in your garage? What then? Would evil exist if there were a walrus in your garage?
Or would that only rise to the level of mischief?
Dunno. Is that walrus invisible? Pink? Both?
These things matter!
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 4:31 pm
(Yesterday at 2:36 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: A lot of people, atheists and theists alike….across time and cultures, have used something like a help/harm standard.
As in- don’t harm, do help. In that order most of the time, too. As in we always have an obligation to minimize harm but we don’t always have an obligation to help. Or that succeeding at harm is worse than failing to help. Jimmy Saville never signed that contract. Neither do serial killers and rapists. So they saw no obligation to minimize harm. Therefore, it's not objective morality, just the opinion of some. I do appreciate your willingness to engage honestly. You're the only one so far.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 4:39 pm
(Yesterday at 3:18 pm)Ravenshire Wrote: (Yesterday at 5:16 am)AngelThMan Wrote: Without God, there are no moral obligations. There is no standard anyone is required to follow. So as long as a serial rapist gets away with it, like Jimmy Seville, there's no obligation unless there's an objective standard, which there is with God. That's my argument. Now address my argument and stop deflecting. Is there an objectively moral obligation under atheism?
Your argument fails at it's first premise. There are any number of moral and ethical obligations that come from society, no gawds required. You were sold a bill of goods by your local shaman and you bought without thinking. Of course, from your "arguments," you seem to do a lot of not thinking.
Like what? From the right or from the left? Magas or liberals? Who dictates morality? But even if every person on the planet had the same moral values, what obligates a dissenter to follow it? What if he wants to destroy the world and succeeds. What has he done wrong from his point of view? Not your point of view, from his. It was always his wish since he was a kid. Get it. Nothing binds him to your preference.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 4:39 pm
(Yesterday at 4:31 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: (Yesterday at 2:36 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: A lot of people, atheists and theists alike….across time and cultures, have used something like a help/harm standard.
As in- don’t harm, do help. In that order most of the time, too. As in we always have an obligation to minimize harm but we don’t always have an obligation to help. Or that succeeding at harm is worse than failing to help. Jimmy Saville never signed that contract. That's fucking god botherers for you.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 4:41 pm
(Yesterday at 3:28 pm)Ravenshire Wrote: (Yesterday at 9:07 am)AngelThMan Wrote: You really don't understand logic or the argument. This is just foolish. I will give you one last chance to answer the first question. If you can't respond properly, we're done:
Under atheism, is anything right or wrong or evil? If Yes, what standard are you appealing to? After you answer that, I can engage with other topics if you're interested
Under atheism (whatever the fuck that means since atheists can barely agree on anything) things are just as right or wrong as they are in society in general. Evil is more a creation of the church, used by the church to control people. It's also a word used to allegorically describe something we consider especially bad. Personally I don't believe that "evil" is an actual force in the world.
Let me get this straight. Nothing is evil objectively? Nothing is bad?
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 4:42 pm
(Yesterday at 4:39 pm)Sheldon Wrote: (Yesterday at 4:31 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: Jimmy Saville never signed that contract. That's fucking god botherers for you.
That's a stupid argument. You're dismissed.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 4:47 pm
(Yesterday at 4:41 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: (Yesterday at 3:28 pm)Ravenshire Wrote: Under atheism (whatever the fuck that means since atheists can barely agree on anything) things are just as right or wrong as they are in society in general. Evil is more a creation of the church, used by the church to control people. It's also a word used to allegorically describe something we consider especially bad. Personally I don't believe that "evil" is an actual force in the world.
Let me get this straight. Nothing is evil objectively? Nothing is bad? You haven't got that straight, the first one is very different from the second for a start.
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