If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong

[Sheldon]

That's fucking god botherers for you.

That's a stupid argument. You're dismissed.

I shan't lose any sleep that a lying trolling keyboard warrior, is sulking after being called on their dishonest bullshit. I must however defer to your pretty obvious expertise on stupid arguments.

[The Architect Of Fate]

The audacity of this clown thinking he has the right to dismiss anyone... lol

It's wild all this stuff gets explained to him and it's gets flies over his head . Meanwhile he can produce nothing but assertions to support his so called objective morality 

[The Grand Nudger]

Jimmy Saville never signed that contract. Neither do serial killers and rapists. So they saw no obligation to minimize harm. Therefore, it's not objective morality, just the opinion of some. I do appreciate your willingness to engage honestly. You're the only one so far.

Oh I dont know about that. The worst people we can think of probably spent a lot of time performing moral virtue. You always hear in the serial killer documentaries how the elderly neighbor remembered so and so being the nicest boy. At the risk of diving deeply there are plenty of offenders who are disgusted by their own behavior and still can’t seem to help themselves.

All very interesting, but I’m not sure why people doing bad things would mean that those things weren’t or couldn’t be objectively bad? It’s not as if I think to myself “x would be bad”….until someone does x, and then , suddenly…it’s not bad anymore because they did it? Likewise, I’ve never thought that just because some person doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with x that means there’s nothing wrong with x.

What’s more troubling for your own beliefs, though, is that you contend that we live in a world with a god…and Saville did what he did in that world. If not feeling that obligation means that it isn’t objective then gods obligations are not objective. Just someone’s opinion.

Is that what you believe? That morality is just opinion? I have opinions, you have opinions, god has opinions, we all have opinions. Let’s try something. If I told you that it was my opinion that I’m an extremely poor golfer…do you think it’s possible that I’m right about that? That my opinion isn’t -just- my opinion, that my opinion is a correct opinion? A factually accurate opinion. An objectively true opinion?

Point being- that something -is- your/our/gods opinion won’t make it true unless we defer to subjectivism…..but neither does the fact that we all -have- opinions and even varying opinions demonstrate that a given opinion is not objectively true. Wouldn’t you agree?

[AngelThMan]

Jimmy Saville never signed that contract. Neither do serial killers and rapists. So they saw no obligation to minimize harm. Therefore, it's not objective morality, just the opinion of some. I do appreciate your willingness to engage honestly. You're the only one so far.

Oh I dont know about that.  The worst people we can think of probably spent a lot of time performing moral virtue.  You always hear in the serial killer documentaries how the elderly neighbor remembered so and so being the nicest boy.  At the risk of diving deeply there are plenty of offenders who are disgusted by their own behavior and still can’t seem to help themselves.  

All very interesting, but I’m not sure why people doing bad things would mean that those things weren’t or couldn’t be objectively bad?  It’s not as if I think to myself “x would be bad”….until someone does x, and then , suddenly…it’s not bad anymore because they did it?  Likewise, I’ve never thought that just because some person doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with x that means there’s nothing wrong with x.

What’s more troubling for your own beliefs, though, is that you contend that we live in a world with a god…and Saville did what he did in that world.  If not feeling that obligation means that it isn’t objective then gods obligations are not objective.  Just someone’s opinion.  

Is that what you believe?  That morality is just opinion?  I have opinions, you have opinions, god has opinions, we all have opinions.  Let’s try something.  If I told you that it was my opinion that I’m an extremely poor golfer…do you think it’s possible that I’m right about that?  That my opinion isn’t -just- my opinion, that my opinion is a correct opinion?  A factually accurate opinion.  An objectively true opinion?

Point being- that something -is- your/our/gods opinion won’t make it true unless we defer to subjectivism…..but neither does the fact that we all -have- opinions and even varying opinions demonstrate that a given opinion is not objectively true.  Wouldn’t you agree?

I'm only talking about a world without a deity. In this case, Jimmy Saville lived a full life. From his perspective, it was great and fulfilling. He was never caught and lived to his 80s. Died happy, believing his reputation was intact. He got to fulfill his fetish. From his point of view, why should he care what the rest of society thinks? What obligation does he have to care? He lived the best version of life from his perspective.

[Mister Agenda]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Just type one in each time you repeat your tedious question.

Great. You can answer questions. Now tell me by what standard. What standard are you appealing to to say murder is evil in a universe with no deity

So you're not going to answer ANY of the questions posed to you before demanding we answer another one of yours?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Oh I dont know about that.  The worst people we can think of probably spent a lot of time performing moral virtue.  You always hear in the serial killer documentaries how the elderly neighbor remembered so and so being the nicest boy.  At the risk of diving deeply there are plenty of offenders who are disgusted by their own behavior and still can’t seem to help themselves.  

All very interesting, but I’m not sure why people doing bad things would mean that those things weren’t or couldn’t be objectively bad?  It’s not as if I think to myself “x would be bad”….until someone does x, and then , suddenly…it’s not bad anymore because they did it?  Likewise, I’ve never thought that just because some person doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with x that means there’s nothing wrong with x.

What’s more troubling for your own beliefs, though, is that you contend that we live in a world with a god…and Saville did what he did in that world.  If not feeling that obligation means that it isn’t objective then gods obligations are not objective.  Just someone’s opinion.  

Is that what you believe?  That morality is just opinion?  I have opinions, you have opinions, god has opinions, we all have opinions.  Let’s try something.  If I told you that it was my opinion that I’m an extremely poor golfer…do you think it’s possible that I’m right about that?  That my opinion isn’t -just- my opinion, that my opinion is a correct opinion?  A factually accurate opinion.  An objectively true opinion?

Point being- that something -is- your/our/gods opinion won’t make it true unless we defer to subjectivism…..but neither does the fact that we all -have- opinions and even varying opinions demonstrate that a given opinion is not objectively true.  Wouldn’t you agree?

I'm only talking about a world without a deity. In this case, Jimmy Saville lived a full life. From his perspective, it was great and fulfilling. He was never caught and lived to his 80s. Died happy, believing his reputation was intact. He got to fulfill his fetish. From his point of view, why should he care what the rest of society thinks? What obligation does he have to care? He lived the best version of life from his perspective.

How could you possibly know any of that? For all you know, Saville was wracked with guilt over his behaviour.

Just because you’re a sociopath, don’t assume other people are.

Boru

[AngelThMan]

I'm only talking about a world without a deity. In this case, Jimmy Saville lived a full life. From his perspective, it was great and fulfilling. He was never caught and lived to his 80s. Died happy, believing his reputation was intact. He got to fulfill his fetish. From his point of view, why should he care what the rest of society thinks? What obligation does he have to care? He lived the best version of life from his perspective.

How could you possibly know any of that? For all you know, Saville was wracked with guilt over his behaviour.

Just because you’re a sociopath, don’t assume other people are.

Boru

That's a really stupid answer. Even if he was racked with guilt, that doesn't mean there's an objective standard. Let's say he felt fine, what did he do wrong from his point of view? What universal law did he break? The fact that you think your answer works shows how clueless you are.

[AngelThMan]

Great. You can answer questions. Now tell me by what standard. What standard are you appealing to to say murder is evil in a universe with no deity

So you're not going to answer ANY of the questions posed to you before demanding we answer another one of yours?

Saying "yes" there is evil in a world without a deity, though not providing the standard is not answering. Can you provide a standard?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

How could you possibly know any of that? For all you know, Saville was wracked with guilt over his behaviour.

Just because you’re a sociopath, don’t assume other people are.

Boru

That's a really stupid answer. Even if he was racked with guilt, that doesn't mean there's an objective standard. Let's say he felt fine, what did he do wrong from his point of view? What universal law did he break? The fact that you think your answer works shows how clueless you are.

Repeating your mistake isn’t going to repair it, numpty.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm only talking about a world without a deity. In this case, Jimmy Saville lived a full life. From his perspective, it was great and fulfilling. He was never caught and lived to his 80s. Died happy, believing his reputation was intact. He got to fulfill his fetish. From his point of view, why should he care what the rest of society thinks? What obligation does he have to care? He lived the best version of life from his perspective.

IDK if that’s true, but assume it is. Assume he died happy believing he lived his best life. So what? How does that change whether or not my opinion that his actions were immoral is true? My opinion that his actions were immoral is based on the nature of those actions….a fact of the object. Not his level of deathbed satisfaction. An (alleged) fact of the subject.

It is a bad fact, though, isn’t it. He got away with it. I would go further than just calling his actions immoral. I would say that anyone who knew what he was up to and didn’t do anything shared in that immorality. If you, me, or god knew and didn’t do anything- that would be immoral as well. I didn’t know. You didn’t know. Think the big guy knew?