Why it's not working

[awty]

Administrator Notice
Removed serious tag as this is no more serious than any of the other posts we have been subjected to.

This is an atheist forum.  If someone has a question about Islam or any other religious doctrine they can ask.  Or go read the holy book in question on their own. Stop your endless preaching.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Administrator Notice
Removed serious tag as this is no more serious than any of the other posts we have been subjected to.

This is an atheist forum.  If someone has a question about Islam or any other religious doctrine they can ask.  Or go read the holy book in question on their own. Stop your endless preaching.

I'm actually OK with the preaching. It's his analyses of world politics that get right up my nose.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

- So I have been focused on this issue these days. In our century we have much more direct and to the point spiritual teaching like A Course in Miracles. But ancient monotheistic books have been the main focus of spirituality in almost all pre-modern societies. Atheism sees these books as stories designed to hypnotize the masses by some sort of religious/spiritual elite. To this I must answer that both Islam and Judaism tried to do all they could to prohibit this “elite” or “intermediary” to emerge in the first place.

A tighter reading might suggest that what the warlord is going on about here is a group of people that had bent the knee but are not paying the tax.  

A similar misconception in the Bible (that I know of) is Eve being created from the rib of Adam. Someone told me that this was a translation mistake. The Hebrew word “tsela” or “side” meant actually that she was created on the side of Adam / as an equal to Adam. (Correct me if I am wrong).

Someone told you wrong.  It's not a mistranslation, it's a mistake with historic consequences.  It says rib.  It even says, in the very next verse, that god closed up he flesh after he'd done it.  

In both of these examples you want magic book to be saying something more acceptable to your contemporary values.  You're not the only one desperate for a modern revision. Always the trouble with scriptural religions. The whole reason that syncretists and reformers exist.

[Leonardo17]

Paleophyte:

“Why would you expect us to care? It's just theists engaging in motivated reasoning and claiming, yet again, that they have The Truth.”

- Because I believe that this verse is referring to something deeply evil. The Michigan Democratic candidate to the Senate Abu Al-Sayed is being called “a member of the Muslim-Brotherhood” by D. Trump. And those who choose to believe him are not 100% wrong about the issue. This guy seems like a good guy and is definitely not “Muslim-Brotherhood”.

But yes, there is an organization called “The Muslim Brotherhood” + many other organizations with similar names and I am reminding everyone that the Koran does not agree with any of these patriarchal / terrorist-like organizations. In fact the Koran does not even agree with M.B.S. when we are at it. On one hand there is no government-type that is defined by the Koran to be applied by each and every Muslim country and on the other, there are some universal principles of Justice and right governance that are being stated by this book that are available to whoever decides to study the issue in detail.

So yes, there are things that even atheists must know or else we might very well spend most of the 21st century trying to deal with Islam just as we had to deal with the Catholic Church during the age of enlightenment.

Awty:

- No. I’m not preaching. Back in college I had a Christian friend who was learning classical Greek just to be able to read Classical Greek versions of the New Testament for himself. All I am saying is that this is a serious issue in monotheistic scriptures. Before deciding something (even as an atheist), you need to be sure you have understood the scripture properly and unless you are an expert there is always room for error. That’s all I am saying.

BrianSoddingBoru:

/ You know the depiction of Mohammad as a pedophile warlord who was a false prophet is actually the work of the Medieval Catholic and Byzantine Church.

For anyone who studies the Koran in a serious manner this is a fact (for instance): The Koran only supports war in the case of tyranny / oppression and/or direct aggression. The Prophet Mohammad even flew away from his enemies at some point. But they came after him. Leaving him no other choice but to fight them (and in military terms he even won battles he was 100% sure to lose back in those days).

So again: I think I need to share my opinion here whenever I see something like October 7th happening in this world.

The Grand Nudjer:

My Source on this issue is Y.N. Öztürk (who we lost to cancer in 2015). He was a Jurist, a professor of philosophy + an Islamic scholar. He was a part of a whole school in Muslim philosophy who see Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance rather than a death cult that tries to destroy almost everything cavitation has ever achieved until now (including reason and science-guided ways of doing things).

The reason why I sort of adhere to this way of approaching the Koran (and other monotheistic scriptures) is because it resonates with the other main spiritual approaches of our time.

Ex: Yoga means Union. Remember the “In heaven as on Earth” statement in my previous message. A yogi is someone who seeks Union with his higher self. Who want to surrender his Ego (or small self) to God.

So in terms of method: If I see such universal approaches, I tend to believe it.

- So what about the Revolutionary Guards?

- As I said in my first message: All major spiritual teachings talk about people who were misled by their own Ego. The Story of Satan refusing to Bow to Adam is an allegoric story that symbolizes the Human Ego misleading humans and causing them to lose their place in heaven (or in the dimension of boundless eternity).

/Whatever: Knowing about basic spirituality is not bad even for atheist. Those “very smart” guys are putting somebody else’s brand on their product. And this will affect you go. That guy in Michigan does not seem like a bad guy at all. So why let some ignorant man call him “Brotherhood” when all that he is, is an ordinary Muslim?

[Leonardo17]

NB: I posted a message in the Ukrain vs Russia part of this forum and all that appeared was a "Click to Edit" message

[awty]

We have had some technical difficulties lately which have been mentioned a few times on different threads.  The issues are being addressed as time allows by our unpaid technical support.

[The Grand Nudger]

I get it Leo. As I said and as you immediately verified, you have a need for a scriptural religion from another time to be made more applicable and acceptable to your own current time. You aren’t the only one. You will always find sources who feel that desire the same as you and approach the text in that way.

You all do so (and have always done so, in every such tradition) with the pattern of history and the millstone of scriptural authority tied around your necks. Islam was not and is not as you wish it were. As you wish it to be. While you’re certain to find a more receptive audience for this disillusionment in an atheist crowd, none of the work that would need to be done to make it more to your liking can be done from here. The universe loves irony.

To sum it all up, again using the example you offered - no magic book was not commenting on contemporary ideas about gender inequality anymore than the narrators of Arabic magic book were speaking about a then non-existent community of dissension. This is revisionism and anachronism - and if that’s what’s necessary to repair a scriptural tradition….well…..you’re abandoning the content and keeping the name.