Prayer ... SERIOUSLY?!

[Shell B]

Actually I said "atheist leaders", and I assure you all three of those nations had them. I don't enjoy your biased statements anymore than you enjoy mine. I am not offended, baffled maybe... :-)

As I have mentioned before, atheism is not what drove them to kill. How absurd of you to twist history to suit your faith. Why do you have to demean other beliefs to get a better handle on your own? Atheists simply do not believe in god. Period. That is fucking it! They don't believe people should run around committing genocide. Your ludicrous arguments suggest that. The worst part is that you only use these arguments because you can't stand for someone to piss on your religion without being able to turn around and say, "Hey, look! You guys did it too." Guess what? There is no "us guys." For fucks sake, the people who murdered in the Inquisitions were Christians. You are a Christian. Those people killed in the name of their god -- your god. I am not Chinese, Cambodian, Soviet, German or fucking communist, so what is your goddamn point? You don't believe in unicorns. Holy shit! Neither did John Wayne Gacy. That means people who don't believe in unicorns are psychotic serial killers and bum touchers! That is what your argument sounds like.

Yes, killing thousands of people in holy wars pales in comparison to killing over 100 million of your own citizens. How can you say they were done in the name of Christianity? Where did Jesus say to kill Muslims and take land? It sounds like they were done for personal gain to me. Stop pointing to ancient history and start learning your recent history.

Um, the people who did it said they were doing it for god. They had crosses on their uniforms, horses, swords and other various items. You are refuting the claims of the very people who did it. That is fucking awesome. Oh, and I will point to whatever part of history I want to point to. Tough titty, Stat.

The next bit of your post were a bunch of quotes taken from "answers.com." That is a user generated source that does not need to be backed up by fact. Those are just opinions. In fact, one of your quotes was someone refuting someone else's answer. Scholarly sources will back up your assertion.

So you don’t think that regular bombing has lasting effects? Ever heard of unexploded ordnances?

Yes, I have. Have you ever heard of ovarian cancer and sterility? Did you know you can avoid unexploded ordinances by moving or that it is possible to disarm them later? Sometimes, it doesn't work that way, but it can. Have you ever heard of a growing new limbs for a child born limbless? No bombing is okay in civilian areas. However, an atomic bomb is vastly more damaging to the Earth and the people and animals on it. You know this, yet you continue arguing. This isn't Devil's advocate material. Shoot straight or stop wasting my time.

What kind of answer was that? “Slavery is wrong because putting people in chains is wrong!” You have done nothing to demonstrate why they are wrong; you have only said that dropping bombs is wrong because killing people is wrong. Why is killing people wrong?

Oh, surprise! My answer wasn't good enough for you. The answer I give is far better than yours. "Because that ancient fucking book says so." I like how you ignored the bit about you pretending to have a monopoly on being good.

[Statler Waldorf]

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As I have mentioned before, atheism is not what drove them to kill. How absurd of you to twist history to suit your faith. Why do you have to demean other beliefs to get a better handle on your own? Atheists simply do not believe in god. Period. That is fucking it! They don't believe people should run around committing genocide. Your ludicrous arguments suggest that. The worst part is that you only use these arguments because you can't stand for someone to piss on your religion without being able to turn around and say, "Hey, look! You guys did it too." Guess what? There is no "us guys." For fucks sake, the people who murdered in the Inquisitions were Christians. You are a Christian. Those people killed in the name of their god -- your god. I am not Chinese, Cambodian, Soviet, German or fucking communist, so what is your goddamn point? You don't believe in unicorns. Holy shit! Neither did John Wayne Gacy. That means people who don't believe in unicorns are psychotic serial killers and bum touchers! That is what your argument sounds like.

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You are severely missing the point. Atheists do not believe in any judgment after their death. It is this belief that drove those to commit their atrocities. If a person believes they can do whatever they want that is exactly what many will do. Stalin didn’t believe he’d ever be held accountable for his actions, which was a direct result of his atheism. No you guys don’t run around telling people to commit genocide, but you also have no basis to tell them not to and that is what is scary.
Talk about trying to have it both ways, and then you turn around and say the people in the inquisition were Christians. A Christian by definition is someone who believes Christ was the Messiah and follow his teachings. So where did Christ say to do those sorts of things? I can claim I am a Muslim and do all sorts of things, but without actually ascribing to the same beliefs as Muslims I am not really one now am I?

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Um, the people who did it said they were doing it for god. They had crosses on their uniforms, horses, swords and other various items. You are refuting the claims of the very people who did it. That is fucking awesome. Oh, and I will point to whatever part of history I want to point to. Tough titty, Stat.

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Oh wow, so wearing a cross makes you a Christian now does it? Ozzy wears one, is he a Christian? Again, a Christian is someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ, where did Jesus teach to kill Muslims? Until you can point me to that, your argument is rather ridiculous.

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The next bit of your post were a bunch of quotes taken from "answers.com." That is a user generated source that does not need to be backed up by fact. Those are just opinions. In fact, one of your quotes was someone refuting someone else's answer. Scholarly sources will back up your assertion.

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I figured you’d whine about that even though you never seem to whine when the atheists on here cite Wikipedia which of course is also not a scholarly source. The Cambodian Genocide Group has the exact same figure, 1.7 million people. They are considered the foremost expert on what happened over there so I think my argument still stands.

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Yes, I have. Have you ever heard of ovarian cancer and sterility? Did you know you can avoid unexploded ordinances by moving or that it is possible to disarm them later? Sometimes, it doesn't work that way, but it can. Have you ever heard of a growing new limbs for a child born limbless? No bombing is okay in civilian areas. However, an atomic bomb is vastly more damaging to the Earth and the people and animals on it. You know this, yet you continue arguing. This isn't Devil's advocate material. Shoot straight or stop wasting my time.

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You seem to forget that dropping those bombs completely prevented a land invasion which would have killed many more men, women, and children. Millions of soviet soldiers died when Germany invaded, I am glad we prevented that from happening to our troops.

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Oh, surprise! My answer wasn't good enough for you. The answer I give is far better than yours. "Because that ancient fucking book says so." I like how you ignored the bit about you pretending to have a monopoly on being good.

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It’s not that I didn’t like your answer; in fact it was the answer I expected. It was just not a logical answer. I never said we have a monopoly on being good, I said we have the only logical basis for doing so because we have an inerrant law giver. I love you Shell, but c’mon :-D

[Shell B]

You are severely missing the point. Atheists do not believe in any judgment after their death. It is this belief that drove those to commit their atrocities. If a person believes they can do whatever they want that is exactly what many will do. Stalin didn’t believe he’d ever be held accountable for his actions, which was a direct result of his atheism. No you guys don’t run around telling people to commit genocide, but you also have no basis to tell them not to and that is what is scary.

The point that you are missing is that many, many atheists have other beliefs apart from a lack of belief in god. I am positive that there are more of us who do not believe in murdering innocents than there are who do. Furthermore, we do have a basis to refrain from committing genocide. It is called compassion. Atheists have feelings.

Talk about trying to have it both ways, and then you turn around and say the people in the inquisition were Christians. A Christian by definition is someone who believes Christ was the Messiah and follow his teachings.

It all depends on how they interpret the Bible, Stat. I could do all kinds of things and then find precedence for it in the "Messiah's" teachings. The people in the Inquisitions were Christians. They were killing witches, like the Bible told them to.

So where did Christ say to do those sorts of things? I can claim I am a Muslim and do all sorts of things, but without actually ascribing to the same beliefs as Muslims I am not really one now am I?

They did ascribe to the beliefs set forth in the bible. You would have been better off using the Crusades as an example. The Inquisitions were fully supported by the Bible and the church, which is supposedly run by men chosen by god himself.

Oh wow, so wearing a cross makes you a Christian now does it? Ozzy wears one, is he a Christian?

Wearing a cross and running around saying shit like, "God wills it." and praying does make you a fucking Christian, actually. People who do not believe in Christ don't do that. Ozzy might be Christian. I know he used to be.

Again, a Christian is someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ, where did Jesus teach to kill Muslims? Until you can point me to that, your argument is rather ridiculous.

Did Jesus teach you to wipe front to back? No? Well, I guess those who do are not Christians.

I figured you’d whine about that even though you never seem to whine when the atheists on here cite Wikipedia which of course is also not a scholarly source.

Whining, huh? *sigh* Actually, I have never been in a debate with an atheist here and asked them for a source. If I had and they had used Wikipedia, I would have objected. However, Wikipedia still contains better facts than the largely unedited answers.com. It is a completely unreliable and unacceptable source.

The Cambodian Genocide Group has the exact same figure, 1.7 million people. They are considered the foremost expert on what happened over there so I think my argument still stands.

Your argument has one leg. Give me a link to the Cambodian Genocide Group and a link to a trustworthy source on the number of people killed in the Inquisitions and the Crusades. I believe your assertion was that more people died in one day in Cambodia than in all of the Inquisitions and all of the Crusades combined. Although, you did fail to note that there were more than one of the two latter events.

You seem to forget that dropping those bombs completely prevented a land invasion which would have killed many more men, women, and children.

That is an assumption. While I agree that action was needed in Japan and I am supportive of my country, you still have no way of knowing that Japan would have launched a land invasion. In fact, I sincerely doubt they would have. You know, the very reason they attacked the U.S. is because they were losing resources from the U.S. because the U.S. refused to provide them unless Japan would leave China. Japan did not have the fucking resources to launch a land invasion. That is why they sent those ridiculous bomb balloons to the U.S. The U.S. wanted Japan because the could not continue fighting in the Pacific without a better base of operations. It had to end or we would not have been able to sustain fighting in the region, which would have been an epic failure.

Millions of soviet soldiers died when Germany invaded, I am glad we prevented that from happening to our troops.

Haha, you are failing to factor in the difference in terrain and resources. Furthermore, Germany was not about to invade the United States. The fear of invasion came from the Pacific Front, not the European Front.

It’s not that I didn’t like your answer; in fact it was the answer I expected.

Good for you.

I never said we have a monopoly on being good, I said we have the only logical basis for doing so because we have an inerrant law giver.

You have a celestial, non-existent Aesop, dude.

I love you Shell, but c’mon :-D

Awkward . . .

[Statler Waldorf]

I was going to let this go because we have gotten way off topic, but some of this stuff is so far out there I just have to respond. Then I will let anything further go.

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The point that you are missing is that many, many atheists have other beliefs apart from a lack of belief in god. I am positive that there are more of us who do not believe in murdering innocents than there are who do. Furthermore, we do have a basis to refrain from committing genocide. It is called compassion. Atheists have feelings.

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A Christian can tell another Christian they should not commit genocide because it violates their moral code. No atheist could tell Stalin that he shouldn’t become the most powerful man on earth by murdering millions.

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It all depends on how they interpret the Bible, Stat. I could do all kinds of things and then find precedence for it in the "Messiah's" teachings. The people in the Inquisitions were Christians. They were killing witches, like the Bible told them to.

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Where in the Bible does it say to kill witches?

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They did ascribe to the beliefs set forth in the bible. You would have been better off using the Crusades as an example. The Inquisitions were fully supported by the Bible and the church, which is supposedly run by men chosen by god himself.

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What verses support the inquisition?

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Wearing a cross and running around saying shit like, "God wills it." and praying does make you a fucking Christian, actually. People who do not believe in Christ don't do that. Ozzy might be Christian. I know he used to be.

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So if I dress like a Muslim and run around yelling “Allah wills it!” I am magically transformed into a Muslim? People will pervert any teaching if they can use it to gain power, Christianity was not exempt. However to say these men were genuine believers is absurd.

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Did Jesus teach you to wipe front to back? No? Well, I guess those who do are not Christians.

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Bad analogy, If you made the claim that people wiped front to back because they were Christians I would ask you to point to where Jesus said that. You claim that the Crusades were done by Christians in the name of their faith, so please point to where Christ said to kill Muslims?

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Whining, huh? *sigh* Actually, I have never been in a debate with an atheist here and asked them for a source. If I had and they had used Wikipedia, I would have objected. However, Wikipedia still contains better facts than the largely unedited answers.com. It is a completely unreliable and unacceptable source.

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If I saw a fellow Christian using a bad source in a debate I’d point out that they should not be using that source.

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Your argument has one leg. Give me a link to the Cambodian Genocide Group and a link to a trustworthy source on the number of people killed in the Inquisitions and the Crusades. I believe your assertion was that more people died in one day in Cambodia than in all of the Inquisitions and all of the Crusades combined. Although, you did fail to note that there were more than one of the two latter events.

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Nope, if you look at the original text I only said the inquisition. It looks like even at the highest estimates for the inquisition, more people were killed in Cambodia in a week.

1.7 million people killed out of a population of 8 million (21% of the country's population).

http://www.cambodiangenocide.org/genocide.htm

Actually, over a period of 350 years only between 1,500 and 4,000 people were ever executed for heresy.

H. Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision, Yale University Press, 1999.

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That is an assumption. While I agree that action was needed in Japan and I am supportive of my country, you still have no way of knowing that Japan would have launched a land invasion. In fact, I sincerely doubt they would have. You know, the very reason they attacked the U.S. is because they were losing resources from the U.S. because the U.S. refused to provide them unless Japan would leave China. Japan did not have the fucking resources to launch a land invasion. That is why they sent those ridiculous bomb balloons to the U.S. The U.S. wanted Japan because the could not continue fighting in the Pacific without a better base of operations. It had to end or we would not have been able to sustain fighting in the region, which would have been an epic failure.

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I was not talking about the Japanese invading the US, I was talking about the US having to invade Japan.

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Haha, you are failing to factor in the difference in terrain and resources. Furthermore, Germany was not about to invade the United States. The fear of invasion came from the Pacific Front, not the European Front.

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I never said Germany was going to invade the US. I was pointing out that invasions kill far more people than two atomic bombs. So by dropping the two bombs we saved millions of lives because we didn’t have to invade Japan.

[Shell B]

I am not bothering going through this whole spiel anymore. I will just answer what is worth answering and I am not quoting as you are a time suck.

You will know what I am responding to.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Don't try to bend it. It is what it is.

Well, it looks like your claim was incorrect, as I suspected. By the way, did you add together the deaths from all of the Inquisitions or are you still refusing to acknowledge that there was more than one?

[Violet]

I still find the ignore function distasteful as all hell.

I don't suffer any witches to live, infact witches are one of the things I love most in my life

[Minimalist]

unless you can show me where Jesus taught his followers to kill Muslims.

Jesus never told his followers to kill jews, either. Never stopped you fuckers.

[reverendjeremiah]

By the way Waldork.."Gott Mit Uns" is German for "God with us".

[Minimalist]

Thanks for translating that for him, Rev. I realize that even I may have given him too much credit.

[Eternity]

I'm guessing you mean "prayer" as in directly asking god for something?

Anyway, I’d like to know how you believers pray?

Palms up and eyes down or up either or.

Where do you pray? How often do you pray?

Where? Where ever it's possible to do so. How often? Not as much as I use to but when I'm down and stressed I'll usually do so.

And what the hell is up with the “holier-than-thou speech” used in prayers?

Not sure about that one. Maybe it's because people feel they need to sound more sophisticated when speaking to god? I haven't heard any muslims doing this as most are do it in Arabic and I can't understand much of what they are saying. Those who say it in English don't sound as such from what I've heard.

Anybody? Thoughts? What is the usefulness of prayer?

Usefulness? It's a reminder that we humans need god and as such are required to ask for such givings and blessings.