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Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 11:57 am
I was arguing with a friend (implicit atheist, but simply labels herself "agnostic" or "don't care") over email who said that people such as myself (explicit atheist who tends to be quite vocal about it) are being cult-like.
She wasn't suggesting atheism itself is a religion or cult, but simply that people who spend a lot of time talking about it, hanging out with other atheists, watching atheist YouTube videos, reading atheist books, donating to secular charities, and getting all riled up about religion are acting like we're in a cult. And places like TAM are our holy pilgrimages (I've never been to TAM - that was what started the argument, I was talking about wanting to go).
Also she said we "talk funny" because we use terms like "logical fallacy" and "god of the gaps" which normal people (I don't know what 'normal people' are) don't use in conversation, and that we just parrot arguments by Richard Dawkins instead of thinking for ourselves, and we should just be quiet and act like "normal" atheists and agnostics and be nice. She also said that if I had kids (I don't yet) I'd probably be reading them Dawkins as bedtime stories to indoctrinate them.
Are there any atheists like me here who get this? Does she have any valid points about us, or some of us? I know I enjoy listening to podcasts and following what's going on in the atheist visibility movement or atheist community or whatever you want to call it that doesn't sound pretentious. And I am aware of the standard kind of fallacies theists make in their repeated, unoriginal arguments but I don't think I'm incapable of thinking for myself.
I said we're not a cult because there's no dogma, and she said that we have things we dogmatically believe, even though they might be correct we don't think them up for ourselves, just learn them from other atheists and go around repeating them. I want to think I'm a free thinker who is capable of understanding the world without just parroting high-profile atheists. She hurt my feelings, but I don't know what to say now, and I don't like fighting with friends it's upsetting. 
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:11 pm
(This post was last modified: July 26, 2011 at 12:14 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I read my many, many children fairy tales as bedtime stories. I especially like the little red hen (they do not). I'm counting on common sense to kick in eventually.
As far as being not being a freethinker because you depend upon those who have the time, talent, and funds to research the world around us to present a clear picture of reality. I'm not so sure what your friend was trying to say with this, that's just flat out ignorant. How much of what your friend knows did he/she research him/herself, in the lab, from scratch?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:17 pm
There is a difference between a cult and people that gather to share common ideas, thoughts, and viewpoints.
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:19 pm
As far as the lingo goes, that's true, you won't hear "god of the gaps" at many water coolers, but, like any hobby, it has its terminology and if you want to participate you learn it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:23 pm
I go airsofting with my aeg sometimes my boy uses a springer I'm waiting for a ukara licence.
All hobbies have terms used exclusively for that hobby.
and dont get me started on my work for the government, half of what I say is gobbledegook if you dont know the lingo.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:26 pm
I can see why some atheists look cult-like, and how some cults include atheism (Raelians for instance), but to include all vocal atheists as a cult is just as wrong as vocal atheists claiming that all Christians think the Earth is 6000 to 10000 years old and we all rode on Dinosaurs. There are those that think Dawkins is the bees knees of atheism, but just a quick search on this forum alone will show that not everyone is as taken with him as an atheist spokesperson (myself included).
As for repeating what other atheists said before, it is not dogmatic if it is accurate.
If one is science minded (and not all atheists are), and scientific result show that position X is the correct position, it really doesn't matter where the source comes from or what his/her beliefs are. I will gladly quote Ken Miller whenever he is right, or Francis Collins, regardless of their beliefs. Their findings can be verified independently, which is one of the most important rules in science, repeatable verifiable results (with the exception of history of course).
Not every human is an expert of everything, there are some things you need to rely on the experts. If an expert says my washing machine is broken beyond repair, and I ask for a second opinion, and the second experts also says it is broken beyond repair, it is not dogmatic of me to say "my washing machine is broken beyond repair".
That said, there are some atheist arguments that I wish atheists like your friend describes stop using. But it is their prerogative to do so.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:26 pm
(This post was last modified: July 26, 2011 at 12:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Government work, probably gobledygook if you do know the lingo.
Hehe, Leo, which "atheist arguments" do you wish people would stop using?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:28 pm
(July 26, 2011 at 12:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: As far as the lingo goes, that's true, you won't hear "god of the gaps" at many water coolers, but, like any hobby, it has its terminology and if you want to participate you learn it.
Exactly Rhythm, I didn't think of it like that, thanks. I think it's fun to keep up with what everyone's saying online. But I think she's trying to say that it's weird for it to be a hobby at all. I'm just wondering, is it okay to make a hobby out of the fact that you don't believe something and enjoy listening to other people who don't believe it either talk about the fact they don't believe it?
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Ever heard of noodling? Rednecks go out wallowing in cottonmouth owned territory, trying to catch nice big (and armed) catfish by hand. So how weird is your hobby again?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Arguing with friend on whether we're cult-like
July 26, 2011 at 12:33 pm
(July 26, 2011 at 12:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Hehe, Leo, which "atheist arguments" do you wish people would stop using?
All babies are atheists is one of them. Rejecting a position (belief in a deity) requires some basic understanding of the subject, which to me makes the labeling of babies as atheists rather disingenuous.
You can't prove a negative is another, but that has been done before elsewhere as well.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
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