God Yahweh Allah was a volcano.

[The Grand Nudger]

Except, again, that the Egyptians didn't chase the Hebrews as they fled away with the "ten plagues" right behind them, Moses at the front (in any guise) or god parting waters.

I'm sorry, was I off base in my previous statement, here I had taken to understand that you were advocating for an entire race of thieving people, criminals on the run from Pharoah, who later rewrote history to hide their acts.

[Hannah]

Except, again, that the Egyptians didn't chase the Hebrews as they fled away with the "ten plagues" right behind them, Moses at the front (in any guise) or god parting waters.

(You can prove this was fiction as much as the bible can prove it was fact)

I'm sorry, was I off base in my previous statement, here I had taken to understand that you were advocating for an entire race of thieving people, criminals on the run from Pharoah, who later rewrote history to hide their acts.

Well, that is a possibility isn't it? Moses was a murderer. He killed an Egyptian in cold blood and hid his body in the sand. Stealing is small fry to murder. The Bible says they stole when they fled. They built a statue of a calf in gold at Mount Sinai. Had they been just slaves as claimed by Christians, they wouldn't have had the gold. All I'm saying is that it is at least a coincidence that the Hebrews left with lots of Egyptian gold and silver, and the Egyptians had, evidence proves, a theft problem with a bunch of people living on the fringe.

[The Grand Nudger]

You keep responding to my objections by citing parts of the narrative I'm objecting to. You realize this?

That's not "all you're saying" btw, that's "all you're left with" at this point. It is unfortunately still untrue. The Hebrews did not leave Egypt with a ton of gold. There was no Exodus.

[Hannah]

You can prove it didn't happen as much as the Bible proves it did so it's pointless you repeating that cop out clause like a parroting Christian.

[The Grand Nudger]

You are always free to provide evidence that invalidates the current model of middle/near eastern history if you like. Quoting the bible fell out of favor with archaeologists a ways back.

(Can I call this guy a fundy puppet?)

[Gawdzilla]

You sure are hot on my tale. You must have a major problem with my theory to get so upset about it.

She thinks I'm following her around the Net. The fact that atheistforums.com and atheistforums.org are right next to each other on my tab bar escaped her.

---

You can prove it didn't happen as much as the Bible proves it did so it's pointless you repeating that cop out clause like a parroting Christian.

Without out proof it DID happen it just another theist's opium dream.

[Hannah]

It might take me a while to get through the whole book so here is the part I've done tonight...

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Exodus 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain

Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud

Exodus 19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

Exodus 19:13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exodus 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

Exodus 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

Exodus 21:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

Exodus 24:2 And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

Exodus 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exodus 24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

Exodus 24:15 And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

Exodus 24:16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Exodus 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Exodus 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

Exodus 34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Leviticus 10:6 bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled.

[Gawdzilla]

The bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the bible is true because the bible says it is true so the...

[The Grand Nudger]

Hannah gets in more scripture than the best hit and run. Dig up some evidence of exodus, not evidence of the selective interpretation of data. Again, proving to us that the bible could be interpreted to support the theory, does not prove the theory itself. It is the bibles track record of varied interpretation that places its verses low on a scale of the "weight" of any piece of evidence. It really is that easy, you just need to dig holes in the desert until you find something.

OR

You could educate yourself on all of the holes already dug, and teams of researchers who have devoted their entire lives to the meticulous collection and preservation of this data. Digs inspired by the Exodus narrative have been some of the most impressive field studies ever performed in terms of size, and scope of time.

[Minimalist]

I don’t know Min. It is possible that enough examples of an older style of language survive in the story to identify its early origins. Plus your possible 8th century BC date isn’t all that far off from my possibly as old as 900 years BC one. None of that means the story wasn’t embellished both before and after that date range.

In Greek or Latin, or Chinese or Sanskrit for that matter ? Sure. We have extensive writings over long spans of time. However, we do not have early Hebrew texts to compare to later Hebrew texts. And when you start going back and forth between two unrelated languages like Greek and Hebrew I'm hard pressed to buy that argument.

You’re certainly more the historian than I am. As such I’d like your opinion on the following hypothesis. I consider it a left leaning blend of Biblical minimal and maximal isms on the origins of Yahweh, monotheism, Exodus and other parts of the Old Testament story. I find it to be compatible with the views of Finkelstein and Silberman.

Yahweh originated as a god of Bedouins from the hills in the Edom region. The concept of monotheism was introduced to the followers of Yahweh through contact with 18th dynasty Egypt. It was brought by refugees (or their descendants) from Amarna following the death of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) and is the much embellished basis for the Exodus story.

These beliefs were brought further north by the Edom Bedouins after the Bronze Age collapse which included many of the Canaanite city states. A blending of the beliefs of the remnants of the Canaanites and new comers from the surrounding area occurred in what would become ancient Israel as the void left by the Bronze Age collapse was slowly filled. The blending took centuries and included pieces of mythology from Canaan, Bedouins, Egypt and the Babylonian/Samarian cultures. During this time both poly and monotheistic factions coexisted.

Um.... no. Far more convincing is the Zoroastrian connection via Persia in the 6th century BC. Atenism in Egypt lasted barely 20 years and was quickly suppressed on the death of Akhenaten. It is speculated that the reason for the richness of Tutanhkamen's tomb was the gratitude of the priests for the restoration of the old gods but that is neither here nor there. Atenism applied, as did most of Egyptian religion, to the pharaoh and was personified in the sun. We see none of that in Judaism.

Yahweh was a minor member of the Canaanite pantheon. How or why he became centered in Jerusalem is something we are not likely to ever know. Archaeologist, William Dever in "Did God Have Wife" goes over the inscriptions of Yahweh and Asherah and the fertility cult figurines which were found all across the region. What is seen is the growing practice of Henotheism. Canaanite religion was henotheistic, i.e., the Moabites worshipped the god Chemosh, in Edom it was Qaus, both were part of the Canaanite pantheon, headed by El. El and Asherat were the main deities with 70 sons who ruled over the nations of the earth and were each worshiped in a given area.

Finkelstein's work in the West Bank in the 80's demonstrated that the groups which later became "Israel" and "Judah" arose at the beginning of the Iron Age in the eastern hill region of Palestine. They had nothing to do with Egypt which, by that time, had begun a long slide to oblivion which ended at Actium in 31 BC when it became a Roman province. Once one gets by the idea that there was some Davidic Empire centered on Jerusalem in the 10th century ( an empire which, like Camelot, only exists in fiction ) there is a decided dearth of occasions when Egypt and Judah would have been of any interest to each other. Egypt had two periods of military relevancy prior to Alexander the Great. Sheshonq I (which the bible garbles into Shishak) made a raid into Israel c 925. The OT claims that he attacked the great city of Jerusalem ( which did not exist at the time ) but Sheshonq's inscriptions on the campaign show that he moved up the coast towards the northern kingdom of Israel which was then starting to come together. Sheshonq does not seem to know that he conquered "Jerusalem" and carried off the temple "treasure."
Seems like an odd display of modesty for an Egyptian king! In any event, there are destruction layers at many of the towns which Sheshonq did say he took but his raid ultimately was little more than a parade militaire which had no lasting effect.

The second time Egypt arose was in the period at the end of the 7th century. Assyria ( allied with Egypt ) was at war with Babylon. Finkelstein's suggestion is that Judah at this time having grown into an actual nation and prospered as an Assyrian vassal began to have ideas about expansion into the northern areas which Assyria was abandoning as they were pressed by the Babylonians. The Egyptians under Necho also seem to have had ideas about recovering their former empire in Canaan and this put Judah into competition with Egypt. To make a long story short the tale of how the Egyptians had been overcome once before with god's help was circulated to show that even lowly slaves could prevail against a mighty army. The "hero" of this tale is "Josiah and he's doing great things until suddenly Necho calls him to a meeting and whacks him. The later author of Chronicles thought this was an inglorious way for a hero to die so he invented a battle for him to lose. As with Sheshonq, the Egyptians don't seem to know they won a victory that day. The Egyptians only say they replaced the king of Judah. The name "Josiah" does not appear in the archaeological record anywhere which is a weakness of Finkelstein's. In any event, a few short years later the Babylonians routed the Assyrians and Egyptian at Carchemesh and they ended up sacking and burning Jerusalem in the aftermath...which does suggest that a leader friendly to the Assyrians had been installed. The Babylonians famously deported the upper classes to Babylon setting the stage for the Exile.

When the Persians took Babylon they suddenly found themselves the inheritors of a whole western empire. The Persians brought with them Zoroastrianism which had an actual, single, male, creator god: Ahura Mazda. It also had a "devil" Angra Mainyu and a heaven and hell and all sorts of bullshit which has become commonplace.
Persia's problem was that they faced a serious revolt back in Iran and Cyrus the Great was killed putting down that revolt so it is clear where the Persian army was needed. The idea goes that a small group was sent back ( Finkelstein has estimated 400 people, total) to be the rulers of the peasants who stayed behind to work the land. They were sent back with a doctrine that they were the returning rulers who had been removed by the Babylonians and gloriously restored by the marvelous Cyrus and they would worship Yahweh who now was indistinct from Ahura Mazda. The "Jews" were not the only group which Cyrus restored. It was a Persian policy decision because they could not afford to send the army to occupy these new lands. BTW, it seems to have worked. The Persian empire controlled the region until Alexander the Great came sweeping though. There is room for a little compromise between the two ideas but overall the Persian connection seems to make the most sense.