Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism

[Fred]

You said you wanted intelligent discussion? Would you prefer an echo chamber? Are you willing to argue for the existence of Zues?

I don't want an echo chamber, but I don't want to argue for myths. These aren't the only options.

[The Grand Nudger]

They aren't? You have evidence? I'm not even attempting to be an ass about this. The myths exist, but the gods therein have never been found. In fact not only have they never been found, the things they we're given credit (or responsibility) for happen to be perfectly natural in every case ever investigated.

[KichigaiNeko]

The observable exoteric husk of what is otherwise unobserved. They are the whole picture until someone shows us otherwise. I can point to the myths, I can hold the text in my hand. They exist. Now, where are the gods they talk about. we checked this place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus

Just so happens, we didn't find any gods. If you have a hot lead, drop it on me.

Good call Rhythm .... but I was asking Fred for HIS explanation/ interpretation.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you want a factual study of the formation and function of religion, cargo cults are pretty much the best thing to jump right into. Since they happened relatively recently we have tons of documentation. A rarity with religions.

[Fred]

The observable exoteric husk of what is otherwise unobserved. They are the whole picture until someone shows us otherwise. I can point to the myths, I can hold the text in my hand. They exist. Now, where are the gods they talk about. we checked this place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus

Just so happens, we didn't find any gods. If you have a hot lead, drop it on me.

Well, that's your problem right there. It's not that there isn't any evidence, it's that you aren't looking in the right place. When you say unobserved, unobserved by who?

So far, there's no cogent answer to what even constitutes proof or why, just the repeated insistence that it isn't there. I know it's a sever sore point when folks point out that materialistic atheism is akin to religion as far as being faith-based, but there's a reason why it comes up over and over, and not from fundies. Instead of dismissing it as "not this shit again," it would be interesting to examine why the charge keeps coming up.

[The Grand Nudger]

Is there another mountain? Google map it for me, and I'll send the boys over with cameras.

NOT...THIS.....SHIT.....AGAIN.

[KichigaiNeko]

Well, that's your problem right there. It's not that there isn't any evidence, it's that you aren't looking in the right place. When you say unobserved, unobserved by who?

Fantastic!! And these people are??

So far, there's no cogent answer to what even constitutes proof or why, just the repeated insistence that it isn't there. I know it's a sever sore point when folks point out that materialistic atheism is akin to religion as far as being faith-based, but there's a reason why it comes up over and over, and not from fundies. Instead of dismissing it as "not this shit again," it would be interesting to examine why the charge keeps coming up.

Very glib answer but you have not addressed the question I raised.

[Fred]

You really think myths are the total package? They are only the exoteric husk.

*Curious...

Please explain the above statement

Each of the major religions have an exoteric shell and an esoteric core. The shells rattle and screech in discord, as they are faith-based and culturally situated. The esoteric cores, however, are based on direct experience and hence largely in accord. They have nothing to do with the myths per se.

[The Grand Nudger]

Here's how this works. A claim to faith is essentially unassailable. Sure, people could question your reasoning, but in the end, you've already declared faith. End of. Now.....if you claim evidence, you have to provide it. If you do not, it's safe to say it doesn't exist. That's how existence works, it's a pass/fail test. There are no shades of grey.

Each religion "claims" to have an esoteric core. For which they are unable to produce substance.

No myths no religion. No Christ without Christ-Myth. Honestly, find evidence for these things outside of myth. Until then, they're just myths.

[Fred]

Well, that's your problem right there. It's not that there isn't any evidence, it's that you aren't looking in the right place. When you say unobserved, unobserved by who?

Fantastic!! And these people are??

So far, there's no cogent answer to what even constitutes proof or why, just the repeated insistence that it isn't there. I know it's a sever sore point when folks point out that materialistic atheism is akin to religion as far as being faith-based, but there's a reason why it comes up over and over, and not from fundies. Instead of dismissing it as "not this shit again," it would be interesting to examine why the charge keeps coming up.

Very glib answer but you have not addressed the question I raised.

I don't know what was glib about it. Seems straight forward to me. Regardless, the folks who have observed are the folks following the esoteric systems I mentioned in my last post, the yogis, sufis, the zen folk, the Christian mystics, kabbalahist, et. al.