Old Wine in New Bottles

[Fred]

Here's why. Oh, yes they do speak for you and there isn't a fucking thing you can do about it. Your protestations are useless and unheeded. They won, and the "atheist, buts" lost. Deal with it, because while you got lost in the definition thickets, the gnus grabbed the ball and ran. ...........

You enjoyed the attention they brought you, so now you gotta pay the piper and it isn't at all your call any more than the moderate religious get to decide whether they will be lumped in with the extremists. Others make the call for themselves, and have. Sorry. Wtf did you expect them to do after all that pounding the gnus put on them? You poisoned your own well, or let the gnus do it for you.

I'm not aligned with them and not aligned with you guys, so standing on the outside it's not hard to see it play out. It's right there to watch.

And still YOU will be labeled and filed Fred... what's the big deal?? Categorising, Pattern recognition, Judgmentalism and Decision making are all human "skills".

No matter what you say or don't say, "others" will judge you and lump you in with a demographic that suits their ego. Why should this be a point of angst for you??

I'm not really following you here. I'm not the one saying those gnus don't speak for your team when they do. I'm just describing the dynamic you guys set up and are now bitching about when you get mis-characterized by those outside the tent, so why should it be a source of angst for me?

I'm fascinated by the sociology of all this stuff, and trust me, I am no stranger to angst at the moment, but this simply isn't on the pile.

[The Grand Nudger]

Who might your pope be Fred? What criticism that you've leveled at atheism or materialism wouldn't also apply to your own leanings? Would you accept any such characterization or generalization as accurate, or valid?

[Fred]

Who might your pope be Fred?

Don't know. What box am I being put in and who would be the pope of that box? See, the point is that it's not my call. It's the call of the boxers, not the boxees.

What criticism that you've leveled at atheism or materialism wouldn't also apply to your own leanings?

Here's three:

The absolute certainty that faith has no value or place in it.

Subjective experience is not a valid means of knowing.

Mind is wholly reducible to brain.

Would you accept any such characterization or generalization as accurate, or valid?

I don't accept any of these as accurate or valid, no.

[The Grand Nudger]

What value or place do you feel that faith has?

Is anyone's truth true? Even when two people experience contradictory truths? What can possibly be known if this were the case?

You have evidence that there is more to the mind than what we have observed?

[ElDinero]

Fred's 'pope' is Harry Houdini, as far as I can tell.

[Fred]

Fred's 'pope' is Harry Houdini, as far as I can tell.

Heh. I can roll with that. Escaping ideological straight-jackets is something I am all about, so very nicely played, sir.

[The Grand Nudger]

And yet you've chosen to throw your bones in with wishy washy mysticism and unsupported assertions, rather than what can be demonstrably known.

[KichigaiNeko]

Here's why. Oh, yes they do speak for you and there isn't a fucking thing you can do about it. Your protestations are useless and unheeded. They won, and the "atheist, buts" lost. Deal with it, because while you got lost in the definition thickets, the gnus grabbed the ball and ran. ...........

You enjoyed the attention they brought you, so now you gotta pay the piper and it isn't at all your call any more than the moderate religious get to decide whether they will be lumped in with the extremists. Others make the call for themselves, and have. Sorry. Wtf did you expect them to do after all that pounding the gnus put on them? You poisoned your own well, or let the gnus do it for you.

I'm not aligned with them and not aligned with you guys, so standing on the outside it's not hard to see it play out. It's right there to watch.

And still YOU will be labeled and filed Fred... what's the big deal?? Categorising, Pattern recognition, Judgmentalism and Decision making are all human "skills".

No matter what you say or don't say, "others" will judge you and lump you in with a demographic that suits their ego. Why should this be a point of angst for you??

I'm not really following you here. I'm not the one saying those gnus don't speak for your team when they do. I'm just describing the dynamic you guys set up and are now bitching about when you get mis-characterized by those outside the tent, so why should it be a source of angst for me?

I'm fascinated by the sociology of all this stuff, and trust me, I am no stranger to angst at the moment, but this simply isn't on the pile.

So busy judging, catagorising, filing and lumping people into neat little boxes and claiming that "they have done it to themselves" is what you are doing. You are just trying to deny your own flawed behaviour and lump it onto someone else/ some scapegoat then; come over all mystical and scientific stating it facinates you.

Hmmm