Evil Atheists

[Darwinian]

What is your answer to the question then?

[The Grand Nudger]

More of this borrowing nonsense. Provide me with evidence that morality is predated by, or in fact arises only from theism. Your morality may come from some form of theism, that does not mean that morality itself has it's origins in theism. Care to answer my question yet? I have more. On what basis do you claim superiority for your theistic source of moral authority over anyone else's theistic source for moral authority? In other words, how have you even determined such a thing to be an authority, or is this just another case of human beings with different opinions (the very same thing which you claim cannot be a source for moral authority).

I can promise you Crux, my reasons for not killing people are not found within the bible (or any other pyschotic god-rambling). In fact, when I look at the actions that are said to have been taken by god, or commanded by god, or justified in his name it has exactly the opposite effect. What kind of authority is that then? What common ground is to be found between you and I within those teachings?

[Strongbad]

If I were to meet an atheist who presents as a happy, confident, solvent individual, beautiful family, good friends etc (you get the picture) who went on to tell me the secret of his success in life was to lie, cheat, steal and stab others in the back at every opportunity, take no prisoners and give no quarter, be ruthless with strangers and only protect family and loved ones. How could I tell him that his behavior was "wrong" or "evil" using an atheistic worldview? "The tears of strangers are only water" would be an apt motto for this individual.

Hmmmm...I guess you would just have to explain to him that his "atheistic worldview", which is obviously the cause of all of his evil behavior, is completely wrong, and that the only way he could see what is right and moral is to accept Jesus as his personal lord and savior, because the God of Christianity, besides being the one true God, is the original source of morality and goodness.

[Rohobian]

If I were to meet an atheist who presents as a happy, confident, solvent individual, beautiful family, good friends etc (you get the picture) who went on to tell me the secret of his success in life was to lie, cheat, steal and stab others in the back at every opportunity, take no prisoners and give no quarter, be ruthless with strangers and only protect family and loved ones. How could I tell him that his behavior was "wrong" or "evil" using an atheistic worldview? "The tears of strangers are only water" would be an apt motto for this individual.

All I would say to your "friend" is that one day he will be the victim of someone lying, cheating, stealing and stabbing. That his behavior becomes a model to be emulated by others, and does he want to really live in a world in which everyone else is lying, cheating, stealing and stabbing?

At last an attempt to answer the question. He would simply respond by saying that you're making the assumption that the welfare of others makes any difference to him or his family, he's quite happy living in that kind of world, thats how it is, survival of the fittest, why should he care about the welfare of others, they are merely evolved machines just trying to survive, of no consequence to his well being or his families. Nothing wrong with that is there?

And I would argue back that it DOES affect him and/or his family, both directly and indirectly. Backstabbing, stealing etc will directly affect him and his family because he could start a war between (himself + his family/friends) vs (the groups of people that he is wronging).

Indirectly, he is screwing over the very people that do things for humanity, which he is a part of. If everyone does as he does, all the doctors, scientists, service providers, and even those who simply put in hard labor to build things (Like our homes) and manufacture our tvs, computers etc may not exist.

Working together with strangers to improve the world >>>> screwing them over for immediate reward

[StatCrux]

More of this borrowing nonsense. Provide me with evidence that morality is predated by, or in fact arises only from theism. Your morality may come from some form of theism, that does not mean that morality itself has it's origins in theism. Care to answer my question yet? On what basis do you claim superiority for your theistic source of moral authority over anyone else's theistic source for moral authority?

I'm not claiming to have moral superiority, I genuinely would like to hear a logical answer to the problem from an atheistic perspective. I have struggled with this question regarding atheism for a while and can see no adequate argument, its the main problem I have with atheism, it always seems to logically end in nihilism, i tend to be in agreement with much of what Nietzsche says on the matter. Theism seems to offer some form of common starting point on which to base morality, people may disagree but there is a common point of reference. How would two atheists resolve disputes on morality? I have yet to hear an adequate resolution to this problem.

[The Grand Nudger]

That you see no adequate argument is not surprising, because no atheist's argument begins or ends with god. Two atheists would resolve a dispute on morality based upon their own value judgements of any given action (which is exactly how two theists resolve such issues-the only difference being that theists offer god as a front for their own opinions).

[frankiej]

Theism seems to offer some form of common starting point on which to base morality, people may disagree but there is a common point of reference. How would two atheists resolve disputes on morality? I have yet to hear an adequate resolution to this problem.

But it isn't a starting point.

Morality existed before these bullshit "monotheistic" religions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmwBPsB0oaE

[LastPoet]

I guess Crux only wants to confirm his delusion that atheists don't have moral grounds. OK, listen very well: Being an atheist ITS NOT a worldview, its simply the rejection of the theistic claims for a god or gods existence, nothing else can be inferred.

There is nothing in being atheist that makes you be moral, there are those of us that are bad, but also those that are good, just like everyone else. The difference is that those of us are good do it because of solid logic reason, not because of some 'stick-or-carrot" reward system, not because there is a magical sky pixie waching us, we are good because we want to be, and we find reasons for that, already provided by other members.

You seem to think, like most theists, that the only way for people to be moral is if they live in fear of a magical sky-daddy. There is a term for that, in psychology, its called PROJECTION!

[Cinjin]

As I have already stated earlier in this thread, my beliefs have zero relevance to the question asked. It seems to be the standard response given by atheists to simply ignore the question and reply with some off the peg anti-Christian response, totally irrelevant to the question. The question is trying to find the basis for a common morality when each individual has a differing view. My personal beliefs should have absolutely no bearing on anyones response to the question. The problem seems to be that in order to answer the question you first need to borrow from the prevailing morality that exists from years of theism and this is what you are desperate to avoid. Can you answer the question without falling into ad hominem attacks (trolling accusations) or avoidance by asking how Christianity is superior? both avoiding the question and not relevant..

Read much? I told you I'm not going to answer the question. Religious people have been proven to be the most immoral people on the planet. Therefore you have no right to ask the question. And by the way, your religion has EVERYTHING to do with it. Questions posed to atheists about morality ALWAYS have to do with religion --- you liar.



(ad hominem - nice. learn a big word today?)

[Shell B]

Loaded question is loaded.

Since I can't be bothered reading this entire thread, I'm probably about to say something that has already been said, but I'm answering you nonetheless.

Atheism is not a worldview. Therefore, you cannot tell him he is wrong using tenets of an "atheistic worldview." I suspect that you only want to demonstrate that atheists don't have a right to moral standpoints, but I'm going to truck on here anyway. You could tell him why what he is doing is wrong, how it hurts other people, hurts society and hurts himself. Instead of using dogmatic cliches, try using reason.

All of that being said, you clearly have no idea how simple atheism really is. Beyond a disbelief in deities, atheists are a myriad of other things. In other words, I can believe my breakfast talks to me and that I can see the future and another atheist can believe that we are but specks of sugar in an alien's breakfast and that his wrinkles are maps to another solar system. You cannot apply a "worldview" or moral stereotype to atheism, whether that stereotype is "atheists lack morals" or not.