Bachmann Can't Pony Up

[Violet]

A "pretty" penis. Now there is an interesting concept.

Who's seen one of these? Really... I want to look in their eyes to see just how wasted they are...

[The Grand Nudger]

Again, the reason I mentioned Influenza and HIV is precisely because they were once "easily preventable". Even with modern anti viral treatments resistant mutations often appear within weeks or months of beginning treatment. That's the point of hitting hard and fast while you have something nailed down. We've eradicated a grand total of two viral diseases in all of human history. One of them wasn't even a human disease (yet). Why not make a run for three? Did you know that there is currently no test for HPV in men? So, that clean bill of health from the pedigree papers you asked for means jack shit. HPV also infects areas not covered by condoms. The forms of HPV that cause cervical cancer do not cause genital warts, so Mr. Fabulous there is carrying a stealth wmd as far as your cervix is concerned. The only "easy way" to be sure you won't get HPV, is to not have sex, period. Not exactly easy..lol.

Or.....we could vaccinate our children down to the last man and drink a toast to number 3. Vaccinations do not work in the long run when people do not use them.

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As far as the idea of "population control"; While epidemics may seem to serve this function it isn't exactly a built in function of some grand design of life. These things are opportunists and given the chance they absolutely would kill off every single thing on earth until they were all that was left. Not exactly a controlled measure. Nor is it desirable to allow them to even begin to do so. Perhaps the idea of being coerced into injecting yourself with something (despite the obvious benefits) is unsettling to your idea of rights, or freedom or whatever, but there have to be human beings alive to enjoy these ideals. If we have a practical concern that runs counter to our idealistic notions of "how things should be" we have to decide whether or not to fall on the sword don't we? What a ridiculous obituary for the human race;

Here lies the human race, who, in the name of freedom and "higher ideals", willfully facilitated their own extinction by epidemic in the year xxxx.

(my penis used to be very pretty Sae, I'm still quite taken with the little guy...lol. Unfortunate incident which likely began in the '60s in some icebound factory in the former Soviet Union.)

[Shell B]

Again, the reason I mentioned Influenza and HIV is precisely because they were once "easily preventable".

When were those "easily preventable?" Aids was pandemic before we even knew it existed.

Even with modern anti viral treatments resistant mutations often appear within weeks or months of beginning treatment.

Yes, but the survival prognosis for HIV/AIDS has gone from 10 years to 25 years. I would say that it is a huge success on that front. As for the flu, it has always been mutating. In fact, that is the same with HIV. Viruses nearly always (or always?) develop different strains. Even Ebola, which barely has any time to mutate in a population because it has a 50-90% mortality rate (Zaire being the most deadly, thusfar) mutates without us even being able to track its movement.

That's the point of hitting hard and fast while you have something nailed down. We've eradicated a grand total of two viral diseases in all of human history. One of them wasn't even a human disease (yet). Why not make a run for three?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good thing. I am saying that forcing people to comply is not a good thing because HPV is still preventable by other means and it is still not spreadable through casual contact.

Did you know that there is currently no test for HPV in men? So, that clean bill of health from the pedigree papers you asked for means jack shit. HPV also infects areas not covered by condoms.

There is no test for women, either. Sure, you can get a pap smear, but that only tells you if you have cancerous or precancerous cells in your cervix. Nonetheless, an std test would be nice, as would a condom.

The only "easy way" to be sure you won't get HPV, is to not have sex, period. Not exactly easy..lol.

Condoms are still a good preventative, according to the CDC. I might also point out that the CDC says that "most cases of HPV go away on their own. In other words, you completely rid yourself of the virus within two years without ever knowing you have had it. Up to 50 million people have some form of HPV in the U.S. at any given time, if I remember the numbers correctly. A very small portion of those people will ever see any negative result from the viruses. The CDC calls a disease related to the virus that 2,000 people come down with every year "very rare." Only 12,000 people come down with cervical cancer a year, so I would call that less than common. Millions of people died every year from smallpox at its peak. Of course, I am not trying to downplay the pain of HPV sufferers, that is horrible. However, it is not something I would worry about destroying the planet. Like I said, extremists on both sides. To hear some people talk, it is a curse from Satan. To hear other people talk, it is going to kill all of our daughters. Really, even the most virulent viruses would have a hard time wiping out the planet. Smallpox, which was a bitch, had a mortality rate of at least 30% and could cause hemorrhaging. That is significantly higher than deaths caused by HPV.

Or.....we could vaccinate our children down to the last man and drink a toast to number 3. Vaccinations do not work in the long run when people do not use them.

Do you really think every single person on Earth was vaccinated to eradicate other viruses?

As far as the idea of "population control"; While epidemics may seem to serve this function it isn't exactly a built in function of some grand design of life.

Obviously not. However, just imagine what the population would have been like without the Spanish influenza.

These things are opportunists and given the chance they absolutely would kill off every single thing on earth until they were all that was left.

They are opportunists. However, it is counterproductive for viruses to kill their hosts. There are very few with mortality rates above 50%. They have been "given the chance" to destroy mankind for thousands of years. Here we are. I'm sorry. I'm as scared of getting sick as the next guy, but I don't prescribe to dramatic prophesies of doom.

Nor is it desirable to allow them to even begin to do so.

HPV, at this point, is completely incapable of such a thing. You're making it sound like HPV is highly communicable and deadly, which is not the case. Of course we lament the deaths that have taken place, but more people die from suicide, from what I can see, than HPV every year.

Perhaps the idea of being coerced into injecting yourself with something (despite the obvious benefits) is unsettling to your idea of rights, or freedom or whatever, but there have to be human beings alive to enjoy these ideals.

Rhythm, viruses are not new to the human race. It is nice to be able to combat them, but let's not pretend this is some new war we are fighting. Viruses have been around since the dawn of man, before, in fact.

If we have a practical concern that runs counter to our idealistic notions of "how things should be" we have to decide whether or not to fall on the sword don't we? What a ridiculous obituary for the human race;

Here lies the human race, who, in the name of freedom and "higher ideals", willfully facilitated their own extinction by epidemic in the year xxxx.

Blahaha! Listen, Shakespeare, we're talking about a disease that millions of people get and never fall ill from. In fact, they rid themselves of the disease. MILLIONS. (Sorry, you need some caps love, dear.) As you have read, repeatedly, I do support forced vaccinations for highly communicable diseases with high mortality rates, so don't pretend my objections stem that far when you know full well they do not. I understand your objections completely, but it's no reason to go all daytime soap opera on me.

[The Grand Nudger]

Since only one of those two involved human beings directly, I'll link you the wiki on smallpox. Vaccination and isolation is exactly how it was done. On a global scale. (it took 187 years)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Eradication

HIV was easily preventable by not consuming, or having intercourse with the non-human carriers. All you had to do to stay away from Influenza was to avoid domestic animals. These two were not actually human diseases for 180 some odd thousand years of human history. How about that for easily avoided by other means? It's nice to see survival rates go up, but wouldn't infection rates of exactly 0% be preferable? Matter of fact, HIV is "easily preventable by other means" in the same way that HPV is, so should we not consider making any (theoretical) vaccination against it mandatory? Now, it may be counterproductive for a virus to kill the host, but they aren't exactly thinking machines are they? Honestly the only credible prophecies of doom floating around right now are the ones involving epidemics. HPV is obviously highly communicable, and cancer is obviously deadly. I'm not arguing that the current strain of HPV is going to nix us all, I'm arguing that any measures we can take to improve human health overall are good measures. I'm arguing that it is almost a given that any virus that is already preying upon us will get nasty as shit given time. The window for immunization exists exactly as long as HPV remains in it's current form. If it does not, the vaccinations you decide to give your child will be useless.

This vaccine may brush up against some of our ideas of sexual morality or responsibility, or discussions of rights etc, but honestly I don't feel that those things have any place at all in a discussion about vaccination. As Moros has said, I don't think any of this would be an issue were we contemplating a vaccine for the common cold (as implausible as that is).

(I couldn't resist the obit..lol)

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Half assed eradication measures have traditionally led to stronger strains. That's the balance here. You either annihilate something entirely or run the risk of actually making it worse, as far as the control or spread of any given virus is concerned. We're actually very good at this as far as the viruses (or parasites) that plague our livestock and crops are concerned, eradication of human viral agents lags behind, gee, I wonder why. My uncle Kermit died not but a few weeks ago after 60 some odd years battling polio btw, approximately 90% of polio infections cause no symptoms at all. Only 1% of cases end in the nasty shit apparently, so maybe we shouldn't pursue that eradication program either? It's easy to prevent anyway, since it's one of those ass-to-mouth types of things, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinderpest#Eradication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_worm_disease
(an extra, just for the hell of it, and not related to vaccination)

If this sort of thing makes me an extremist, I guess I'm just going to have to accept that.

[Shell B]

Since only one of those two involved human beings directly, I'll link you the wiki on smallpox. Vaccination and isolation is exactly how it was done. On a global scale. (it took 187 years)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Eradication

I know, but my question was, do you think every single man, woman and child was vaccinated during the smallpox eradication?

HIV was easily preventable by not consuming, or having intercourse with the non-human carriers.

We're not really sure of that. Because HIV took so long to spot, we really don't know how it was first contracted, though most people scoff at the sex with a monkey idea. Today, it is as easily preventable as it was then. Don't have sex with human carriers. I will say, though, it is awfully hard to prevent transmission from non-human carriers when you don't even know the disease exists.

All you had to do to stay away from Influenza was to avoid domestic animals.

That's easy?!?!

These two were not actually human diseases for 180 some odd thousand years of human history. How about that for easily avoided by other means?

Actually, that is awfully difficult to say for certain. Besides, just because a disease has a non-human vector for much of its existence, does not mean that it becomes more deadly to humans upon entering the human population. No one ever heard of Marburg or outbreaks of it until a few decades ago. It was extremely deadly the moment it met with the human population, though virologists tend to think it and other such viruses have had dalliances with humankind in the past.

It's nice to see survival rates go up, but wouldn't infection rates of exactly 0% be preferable?

Of course.

Matter of fact, HIV is "easily preventable by other means" in the same way that HPV is, so should we not consider making any (theoretical) vaccination against it mandatory?

Absolutely. Even more so because there are tests for HIV.

Now, it may be counterproductive for a virus to kill the host, but they aren't exactly thinking machines are they? Honestly the only credible prophecies of doom floating around right now are the ones involving epidemics.

Pandemic doomsdayers at least have the decency to admit that only most of the human population is likely to go in a pandemic. Even the deadliest of viruses are not capable of destroying the entire human population. The scariest virus so far is the flu, backed by Ebola. Now, if Ebola became as communicable as the flu, we would have a serious fucking problem, but 10% of us, at the very least, would make it.

HPV is obviously highly communicable, and cancer is obviously deadly. I'm not arguing that the current strain of HPV is going to nix us all, I'm arguing that any measures we can take to improve human health overall are good measures.

I'm not arguing against that. I simply think diseases like HPV are better fought through educating the public, as well as vaccinating those who are willing. I would not be averse to making people carry vaccination cards like licenses.

I'm arguing that it is almost a given that any virus that is already preying upon us will get nasty as shit given time.

Smallpox did not grow from a cancer or wart producing virus. Hemorrhagic fevers don't all of a sudden become the common cold, etc. Viruses do have limits, as far as we can tell.

The window for immunization exists exactly as long as HPV remains in it's current form. If it does not, the vaccinations you decide to give your child will be useless.

Rhythm, there are currently several forms of HPV, the vaccine prevents four of them, if my memory serves me. Most types are pretty fucking harmless.

This vaccine may brush up against some of our ideas of sexual morality or responsibility, or discussions of rights etc, but honestly I don't feel that those things have any place at all in a discussion about vaccination. As Moros has said, I don't think any of this would be an issue were we contemplating a vaccine for the common cold (as implausible as that is).

Because the common cold spreads like fucking wildfire. If the common cold had a high mortality rate, it would be like the flu on crack. Of course I wouldn't object to vaccinations for something that spreads through the air. I do realize that other viruses can become airborne, but unless the effect the respiratory system, they are unlikely to be spread in aerosol form.

(I couldn't resist the obit..lol)

I figured as much. Don't feel bad. Though I try very hard to suppress it, I have a tendency toward the dramatic myself.











[/quote]

[The Grand Nudger]

It's pretty obvious that we agree on about 99.9% of this issue, the line between us seems to be one of idealism/pragmatism. Not a likely barrier for either of us to cross. Think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I will be popping my head up to blame you if some horrible mutation of HPV occurs though, I will hold you personally responsible..lol.

Until then


(damned img links ruining my olive branch)

[Shell B]

It's pretty obvious that we agree on about 99.9% of this issue, the line between us seems to be one of idealism/pragmatism. Not a likely barrier for either of us to cross. Think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Happily.

I will be popping my head up to blame you if some horrible mutation of HPV occurs though, I will hold you personally responsible..lol.

Of course you will.

Until then


(damned img links ruining my olive branch)

Nah, it was accepted, nonetheless.

[thesummerqueen]

A picture of you shirtless might have gone over better than a plant.

[Shell B]

A picture of you shirtless might have gone over better than a plant.

Nah, then I would feel obliged to reciprocate and you would have to give me a warning.

[thesummerqueen]

bahahahaha, the hell I would!!