Did the flood really occur?

[paintpooper]

What created god? Another god? What created that god? Another god? what created that god? Another God.What created god? Another god?

OR

Matter and energy has always existed and due to natural forces, that matter and energy was able to assemble into galaxy's, stars, and planets, and on some of those planets, matter and energy, created floods. There I explained to you how the flood happened, nothing SUPERnatural about that.

[BloodyHeretic]

Obviously there was no global flood, it's physically and logistically impossible. Go with the theory you brought up, the one about a local flood inspiring such writings as we find about the flood in Genesis. It still mightn't be right, but it's so much more plausible. You know, I know it, everybody knows it and so the idea that the bible is the literal word of god disintegrates. A question for you Salty, does that change your faith?

[Minimalist]

So, I'm curious about something, Salty.

You're hanging your hat on whether or not there was a "Flood." Do you buy the rest of the story? That a 600 year old guy and his 3 sons built a 450 foot long boat and gathered up 2 ( or 7 pairs ...depending on which version of the story you read ) of every animal and herded them onto the aforementioned ship?

That kangaroos were obtained from Australia? Bison from N. America? Alpaca from S. America? Polar Bears from the Arctic? Etc., etc. and that they all lived together on said boat until it crashed into a mountain and then they all what? Swam home?

How far are you willing to take this nonsense?

And No. Not only is the exodus a load of shit so is the entire idea of mass slavery in Egypt in the Late Bronze Age. That was not how they organized their building projects. They relied on a corvee labor system among their own populace.


However, by the time these stories were written down mass slavery was commonplace among the Greeks demonstrating once again that ancient writings tell us more about the lives of the authors than they do about the people they pretend to be commenting upon.

[5thHorseman]

What he said ^^^^^^

[Erinome]

I believe you're well aware that I am not scientifically minded, that I am not going to use my personal time and life energy to look at wind patterns and the probability of the water vaporizing concerning the flood, there are apologetic websites about these subjects! You can read up on all of that for yourself!

If you're not scientifically minded, why even ponder such mysteries? The only way to really figure it out is through science! You already waste your personal time and energy worrying about what's going to happen to you when you're worm meat. Most of us here are scientifically minded, and basically gag at the thought of reading apologetic bullshit for anything other than a chuckle. FYI!!!

I thought the main reason for me to answer the question was so that you could see me evaluate evidence (or lack of it) and learn my opinion on what I've read. I thought it was so that you could see me think for myself and yes, I still trust God, and yes I am still expressing my thoughts the way that I do it. I didn't think that you actually wanted me to present a CASE, I'm not Lee Strobel!

You're not Lee Strobel?!?! Holy Shit! I totally thought you were!

Concerning my research. I am addressing creationism, evolution, the trinity and theories on the age of the world, but I don't have the time on my hands to write a book on any of these subjects! I barely have time to get on this forum anymore. Really, I don't know what you do in your spare time, but I have a life, I have a husband, I have a job, I have a family, I have a church, I have responsibilities, therefore the research that I "fit in" for you (and El Dinero), no matter how upsetting (or disappointing), shows my devotion to speaking for myself, thinking for myself to answering people I have no obligation to answer.

Really? We all have responsibilities. I work full time helping 14 year old girls tell their Christian parents they're pregnant, and them help them find safe places to live when their parents kick them out. I have 3 kids, I do volunteer work, I try to dance a couple times a week, I do a cycle class 5 days a week, I am in school, always writing papers, essays, etc... I read, I masturbate, and we all have responsibilities. I still manage to find some time to contribute to the forum. You have Jesus in your life, I don't, so you think that he would help you find time for everything. Maybe you should pray on it. In the meantime, save us the cop-out's and just admit you got nothing.

Whatever the case, just know that I have other things going on and I "make time" for you and everyone here because I care. And... you know what...I really don't need to take an earful from you, like this...
I have to get off. I have to get back to my job. Sorry I can't read everyone's responses, but I'll be back to answer.

Salty

Oh well thank you so much for caring enough about us godless heathens to take the time out of your life to preach to us your apologetic nonsense. If you don't want an earful about it, it could be that you're in the wrong forum.

[Minimalist]

I didn't think that you actually wanted me to present a CASE, I'm not Lee Strobel!

You may as well be. He's terribly unconvincing too.

[popeyespappy]

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I bought an old book called The Bible As History by Werner Keller (New York, 1981). Yes, it's old, but it has the same general challenge the websites and the apologetics articles address, which is whether "the" flood was global or local. This book presents the evidence that a flood occured.

I will present the findings using quotes from the book, then my opinion of the article written by the website GodandScience.org. Finally I will give my personal thoughts.

“Actually it was by coincidence—during research into something quite different—that unmistakable evidence of the Flood appeared, as it were, of its own accord. And that happened at a place we have already got to know: at the excavation at Ur.” (p.44)The archeologist Woolley discovered the great kings of Ur.
“Directly under the floor of the tombs of the kings we found in a layer of charred wood ash numerous clay tablets, which were covered with characters of a much older type than the inscriptions on the graves. Judging by the nature of the writing the tablets could be assigned to about 3000 B.C. They were therefore two or three centuries earlier than the tombs.” (p. 45)Woolley dug beneath the floor of the tomb to find virgin soil, but found clay instead. “He carefully prodded the ground on the floor of the shaft and stopped short: it was clay, pure clay of a kind that could only have been deposited by water!” (p. 46) “Under this clay deposit almost 10 feet thick they had struck fresh evidence of human habitation.” (p.46) “The Flood—that was the only possible explanation of this great clay deposit beneath the hill at Ur, which quite clearly separated two epochs of settlement. The sea had left its unmistakable traces in the shape of remains of little marine organisms embedded in the clay.” (p. 47) “Other archeologists discovered a further important check-point near Kish, south-east of Babylon, where the Euphrates and the Tigris flow in a great bend towards each other.” (p. 48) “According to Woolley the disaster engulfed an area north-west of the Persian Gulf amounting to 400 miles long and 100 miles wide, looking at the map we should call it today “a local occurrence”—for the inhabitants of the river plains it was however in those days their whole world.” (p. 48) “Reckoning by the age of the strata containing traces of human habitation, and in this respect they are as reliable as a calendar, it could also be ascertained when the great Flood took place. It happened about 4000 B.C.” (p. 48) Woolley and another archeologist, Langdon, bickered about the time frame of the flood and their dating did not align. “In other words, Woolley’s “Flood” was obviously not of sufficient magnitude for the Biblical “Flood”, unless we assume that one of the flood catastrophes shown by archeology to have occurred in Mesopotamia had nevertheless had such a lasting effect on the inhabitants of those days that—with considerable amount of exaggeration—the tradition of a catastrophe to humanity could arise from it. Naturally, however, this supposition and the Biblical flood, at any rate a flood of the unimaginable extent described in the Bible, still remains “archeologically not demonstrated”.(p. 49)

Concerning the article titled: The Genesis Flood - Why the Bible Says It Must Be Localhttp://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/localflood.html

In this article Rich Deem lays out his reasoning behind supporting a local flood instead of a global flood. Take a moment to read the article to see what he has to say. I read the Scripture he mentioned (Psalms) and I also remember the account of the Tower of Babel, which I think is a good reference to the people of Earth at the time. I feel that it is plausible for the Lord to be speaking of the “whole earth” and mean the people in that remote area, which is similar to people currently saying, “everyone is sick”, when in reality they mean about three people in their personal circle are sick, not the entirety of the earth.

The specific verse in Psalms 104:9 “You set a boundary they [water] cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth.” I disagree when the article mentions that this verse makes it clear that the flood was local. I do not feel this is referring to the boundaries of the flood as it spread, but more so the boundaries of the water when it was first established at creation, and the fact that the Lord would keep his word to never flood the earth again, which pushes me closer to the idea that the Lord covered the entire earth in water, not just a certain area.

My Conclusion:
It’s clear that the brief evidence that has been presented archeologically from The Bible As History, the flood seems more local than global. I think that this heavy flood (400 miles long, 100 miles wide) does not have to be considered the Biblical flood, but should definitely be given some supernatural considerations as to its origin. I think that if a skeptic would decide to stake their opinion of the reliability of the Bible based only on what has been presented here for the account of the flood, that person is seeking to discredit the Bible without any real effort in their research. I think that this sentiment can be applied to some Christians (myself among them) who discredit evolution and other scientific theories without knowing the specifics of the issue. I feel that the research I am doing will provide a more educated response to some matters (creationism, evolution, young-earth and old-earth theories) and I would hope that it would inspire some atheists to have an educated response to Biblical things, which would mean exegetical and historical research, not just, “it doesn’t make sense, so I don’t believe it” that’s how too many religious people respond, don’t you agree?

So, did the flood really occur? According to what has been presented a flood did occur, whether it’s “the” flood will be up to the individual. Since none of us were present when this flood happened we either have faith that it was not the flood of the Bible or have faith that it was. We either have faith that the flood covered the entire world or we have faith it was local. Whatever happens, we must use our faith to decide for us because the evidence can only verify it happened, but cannot verify every detail, take the pyramids for example, as far as I know, we’re still having trouble understanding how they were built. Basically, it’s our understanding of the subject as a whole that determines what we’ll believe.

An Example:
Fact: Women lie.
My mother is a woman, therefore she’s a liar.
But from what I know of her as a person, she speaks the truth more than lies. In response to my understanding of her and experience with her, I believe my mother is honest.
This does not overrule the fact that she’s a liar instead belief allows me to extend trust that my knowledge of her is sufficient for me to continue being connected and in contact with her.
(My knowledge of God (based on understanding and experience) is sufficient for me to extend trust in the Bible and to continue being connected and in contact with the Bible and God, though some facts may oppose me.)

Based on my understanding of God as revealed in the Bible I believe that the Flood took place around 4,000 BC. I think it’s convenient to say that it was local because then the Egyptian civilization could still be moving and growing, unharmed, while all the other wicked people are washed away in this huge restricted flood. I would rather stick to the original idea that the Flood was worldwide and that the animals needed to be aboard the ark because God wasn’t going to let the others survive. I think that a local flood would rarely maroon a boat on a mountain and I also think that constant rain for 40 days and 40 nights would cause a lot more rushing water than just 400 miles long, 100 miles wide.

This is what I have come up with.

Salty (Q2: Did the exodus really occur?)

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Ur huh?

Currently called Tell el-Muqayyar. Once located on the main channel of the Euphrates river on the Persian Gulf. A flood prone area to say the least. The layer of clay in question dates to around 2900 BC. You’re only off by 900 years.

Tell me Salty, have you ever compared the flood story of the Old Testament with the flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh? How about the story of Moses as a child with the story of young Sargon of Akkad? The seven days of creation? The Garden of Eden? Adam? If so, have you ever researched what modern Biblical scholars, other than the ones that come from private evangelical schools, think about the relationship between these stories?

If not let me summarize it for you. These parts of Jewish history were written into the story after the Babylonian Exile. Two generations of the Jewish elite were forced to reside in Babylon. When they returned to Israel in 538 BC with the backing of the Persian King Cyrus the Great they brought the Mesopotamian mythology they had been taught with them.

The stories in the Old Testament aren’t what you’ve been taught they are. They are not a historical account of the chosen people of the God of Abraham. They are a bastardization of the oral traditions of the Israelis and Mesopotamian mythology.

[Minimalist]

Two generations of the Jewish elite were forced to reside in Babylon. When they returned to Israel in 538 BC with the backing of the Persian King Cyrus the Great they brought the Mesopotamian mythology they had been taught with them.

Even this is propaganda, Pap. There's a fine book called "The View From Nebo" by Amy Dockser Marcus who details a number of archaeological finds. One concerns cunieform records from the period when the Judahites were in Babylon. As she notes on page 174:

The Book of Chronicles states that the deportees from Judah were servants in Babylon, but, in fact that wasn't the case for most of the exiles. Instead, they obtained land from the state and were considered the king's tenants. Fathers were able to bequeath the land to their sons. Most positions in the empire were open to Jews. Some were engaged in crafts and commerce, others absorbed into huge state projects that were paid salaries from the state treasury. Former Judeans even got posts in the imperial administration and rose to senior positions. A huge bureaucracy was needed to run such a far-flung empire. Educated, literate exiles like the ones from Judah were quickly integrated into the civil service.

I'm not sure what it is about Jews that they love to portray themselves as slaves but it does seem to be a hangup with them. Perhaps Summer can chime in with some explanation for this constant kvetching they do?

[Justtristo]

Really? We all have responsibilities. I work full time helping 14 year old girls tell their Christian parents they're pregnant, and them help them find safe places to live when their parents kick them out. I have 3 kids, I do volunteer work, I try to dance a couple times a week, I do a cycle class 5 days a week, I am in school, always writing papers, essays, etc... I read, I masturbate, and we all have responsibilities. I still manage to find some time to contribute to the forum. You have Jesus in your life, I don't, so you think that he would help you find time for everything. Maybe you should pray on it. In the meantime, save us the cop-out's and just admit you got nothing.

I have to say you are far more of a hero than Jesus Christ ever was, just for the balancing all those commitments in my life.

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Two generations of the Jewish elite were forced to reside in Babylon. When they returned to Israel in 538 BC with the backing of the Persian King Cyrus the Great they brought the Mesopotamian mythology they had been taught with them.

Even this is propaganda, Pap. There's a fine book called "The View From Nebo" by Amy Dockser Marcus who details a number of archaeological finds. One concerns cunieform records from the period when the Judahites were in Babylon. As she notes on page 174:

The Book of Chronicles states that the deportees from Judah were servants in Babylon, but, in fact that wasn't the case for most of the exiles. Instead, they obtained land from the state and were considered the king's tenants. Fathers were able to bequeath the land to their sons. Most positions in the empire were open to Jews. Some were engaged in crafts and commerce, others absorbed into huge state projects that were paid salaries from the state treasury. Former Judeans even got posts in the imperial administration and rose to senior positions. A huge bureaucracy was needed to run such a far-flung empire. Educated, literate exiles like the ones from Judah were quickly integrated into the civil service.

I'm not sure what it is about Jews that they love to portray themselves as slaves but it does seem to be a hangup with them. Perhaps Summer can chime in with some explanation for this constant kvetching they do?

Interesting quote there Min, the late development of a Jewish identity would be mirrored in the quite late development of true monotheism among the Israelites (which is likely during the exile and just after it). I am familiar with Israel Finkelstein's argument about monotheism emerging during the reign of King Josiah.

However I would argue the religious reforms that occurred then were a move towards just worshipping Yahweh alone, while still recognizing the existence of other gods. Because there is a lot of material in the old testament which alludes to the existence of more than one god, phrases like "above all gods" etc and also the word Elohim literally means gods.

[popeyespappy]

Even this is propaganda, Pap. There's a fine book called "The View From Nebo" by Amy Dockser Marcus who details a number of archaeological finds. One concerns cunieform records from the period when the Judahites were in Babylon. As she notes on page 174:

The Book of Chronicles states that the deportees from Judah were servants in Babylon, but, in fact that wasn't the case for most of the exiles. Instead, they obtained land from the state and were considered the king's tenants. Fathers were able to bequeath the land to their sons. Most positions in the empire were open to Jews. Some were engaged in crafts and commerce, others absorbed into huge state projects that were paid salaries from the state treasury. Former Judeans even got posts in the imperial administration and rose to senior positions. A huge bureaucracy was needed to run such a far-flung empire. Educated, literate exiles like the ones from Judah were quickly integrated into the civil service.

Kicked in balls again for listening to Biblical scholars. I guess that’s what I get. I’m going to have to start treating the term as an oxymoron. I do want to make sure I understand what you are saying though. You aren’t disputing the Mesopotamian origins of much of the material in the Old Testament. Just that it got there though a different method than I proposed.

Got any other recommended sources? I’ve found something on Google books. Judah and the Judeans in the Persian period by Oded Lipschitz, Manfred Oeming, but I haven’t had a chance to look at it yet.


Quick change of gears…. What do you know about the Ugaritic archives? There’s a n00b over on the other AF talking about them, and I’m not familiar with them.